Chris Edwards

Chris Edwards on his memoir, “BALLS” and understanding gender identity (#49)

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Our guest today: Chris Edwards

After I had the pleasure of interviewing Dorie Clark (author of an amazing book called Stand Out – How to find your breakthrough idea and build a following around it), she immediately introduced me to a new guest – Chris Edwards. Chris titled his memoir BALLS. It takes some to get some because as he says, “Changing your gender from female to male takes balls. And if you’re gonna do it in front of 500 coworkers at the largest ad agency in Boston, you better have a pretty big set!” But “Balls” is about so much more. At its core it’s the funny, heartwarming story about family, friends and the courage to be true to yourself.

Prior to going freelance so he could focus on his book project, Chris was the EVP Group Creative Director at Arnold Worldwide – the company I’ve been working for for the past 2 years, but Chris and I never crossed paths there.

We cover a lot in this episode including:

  • It’s been 20 years, why coming out now?
  • FAQ – what’s OK to ask, and what’s not, of a transgender person
  • How Chris revealed his story to his nieces and how the girls responded
  • Chris’ take on Ben Carson’s “Bathroom Bill for Transgender People”
  • “I’m a storyteller, not an activist.”
  • The impact Chris had on others through writing and speaking
  • What transgender people can do to help others

I can’t wait to read Balls, which will be published in 2016. Release date will be announced on Feisworld. For now, I’d like to invite you to join a very personal conversation with Chris, where we not only discuss his new book but also the challenges and hardships he had to endure.

This is a story of hope. 

ChrisEdwards | Feisworld

Chris’ transition from female to male took years and it was a part of his memory that is very painful to look back on. To his own surprise, Chris made a decision to step out of his comfort zone and tell his story, a success story that other transgender people, parents, families, friends, and everyone else can relate to, and to understand what it means to us, what it means to be human.

Chris and I laugh plenty on the podcast which proves that learning new things doesn’t always have to be difficult. Chris teaches a valuable lesson on how we can all get along better: What’s offensive to ask? What’s OK? Don’t beat yourself up as long as you try. It’s an amazing experience for me to connect with such an authentic storyteller.

Chris speaks at Ad Club Conference in March 2015:

To follow Chris, please connect with him via Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn and check out his website at: 

Please check out other conversations I’ve recorded in the past. Feisworld Podcast Starter Guide will help you navigate content that’s most relevant and compelling to you.

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Chris Edwards 0:05
and there’s a big difference between somebody teaching you about transgender issues and teaching you the terminology and teaching you what to say and what not to say. versus hearing somebody’s story. I learned about this suicide attempt rate is 50%. For Kids, before they turned 20 50% of all transgender kids were trying to kill themselves. You know, when I went through this, my parents didn’t have any success stories to turn to. There was nothing they couldn’t look at someone who went through this and be like, Okay, well look at this person, you know, Chris could turn out like them. And that would be fine. Yeah, that would be great. And I feel that if there are more people like me who share their story, parents will have that kids will have that. And they’ll, they’ll see that there is hope.

Fei Wu 1:03
Welcome to another episode of the Feisworld podcast, where I share conversations with a personal collection of mentors I’ve met from Beijing to Boston, along the way of exactly. I googled as, obviously 6729 miles, thanks to the digital age as well, because I can now connect with people I’ve never met before places I’ve never traveled to. It’s a jumble of order and chaos, head and heart. After I had the pleasure to interview Dorie Clark, she, by the way, is the author of an amazing book called standout how to find your breakthrough idea and build a following around it. She immediately introduced me to a new guest named Chris Edwards. Chris is the author of the book called balls. It takes some to get some because, quote, changing your gender from female to male takes balls. And if you’re going to do it in front of 500 co workers at the largest ad agency in Boston, you better have a pretty big set. Prior to focusing on balls as a freelance writer, Chris was the EVP group Creative Director at Arnold worldwide. Yep, that’s the company I’ve been working for for the past two years. I can’t wait to read balls, and then it will be published in 2016. It hasn’t been published yet. So the release date will be announced on face world as soon as I have the information. For now, I’d like to invite you in joining me and Chris in a very personal journey, a personal conversation with him. The transition took years and it was very successful. But it was a period of time that was also very painful for Chris. He made a decision, however, to step out of his comfort zone and tell a story, a success story that others including transgender people, their families, parents, friends, and everyone else can relate to, and to understand what it means to us what it means to be human, Chris, and I laugh plenty on this podcast. So you see learning new things don’t always have to be painful. Chris teaches a valuable lesson on how we can all just get along better, what’s offensive to ask and what’s okay and what not to beat yourself up as long as you try. It’s an amazing experience for me to connect with such an authentic soul, a beautiful a generous soul and a great storyteller who’s absolutely engaging to listen to. So if you like this episode, please make sure to visit phase And check out my other conversations I’ve recorded in the past. I created a face world podcast Starter Guide that helps you navigate content that’s most relevant and compelling to you. Without further ado, please welcome Chris Edwards

I’ve been very pleased with everything I’ve learned about you and personally I thought the podcast with Jordan Harbinger on the Art of Charm was phenomenal and oh thank you. Yeah, I was first of all, I was so glad he did it because I was searching for similar you know, podcasts and for me I listened to all of them before I interview my guests. That’s good.

Chris Edwards 4:24
You’re prepared,

Fei Wu 4:25
always prepared. I read the books, but in this case, I couldn’t read your word after

Chris Edwards 4:29
read it when it comes out.

Fei Wu 4:30
I have to and I’ll write a review. Okay, great. I write all the Amazon reviews and you know, it’s it’s such a I mean, not to be so selfish. It’s such a phenomenal experience for me. So yeah,

Chris Edwards 4:43
I’m flattered.

Fei Wu 4:45
You know, when I chatted with a number of co workers here and Arnold, this is your sort of your comfort zone actually. What what did it How does it feel like to be

Chris Edwards 4:55
weird now because I never worked in this new location. So it’s a little bit Weird. Yeah. And it’s see I left three years ago. So I come in here and I feel old number one. But I did, I did walk in, and I saw five people that I used to work with, which is great. It’s great to see them. Everybody hugged you. Yes. It’s nice to feel welcome. And I have a few people I need to go see before I leave. But it is a little, it is a little surreal to walk around here not aware of going where I am not know where I’m going and see so many young people that I’ve never seen before. And it just seems like it’s a you know, it’s just evolved into the next generation.

Fei Wu 5:43
Yeah, I started to feel a little bit old and agencies as well. Everybody, like in the 20s. It’s crazy. It is

Chris Edwards 5:50
crazy. Yeah. That’s a young business. Yeah. But you’re as young as you feel. That’s what I say. And in my head, I am always 37.

Fei Wu 6:00
What why that number? Why 37? No, 37.

Chris Edwards 6:03
It just seems like that was, that was a good time in my life. And I just felt balanced. And that was, I don’t know, that was a good time. And I just kind of I have in my mind set when someone asked me how old I am. I always have to think because I want to say 37 Yeah, but I know that’s a lie.

Fei Wu 6:20
So I have a feeling and when I released this podcast, a lot of the people from our old people have worked with in the past, it’s kind of jump right on it. Assume they they know you they know your story. But I also have a set of audience who have not heard from you have not read your book. So well. You

Chris Edwards 6:36
know, it’s funny that you say that, because, you know, I was at Arnold so long, just over 19 years, almost 20 years. And when I when I first announced, you know, that I was going to be transitioning, of course, everybody knew. And for years, everybody knew and my transition took took years, I think a lot of people think it’s like a one and done surgery type of thing, but it’s not. But because the ad industry, the changeover, people hop around from agency to agency, it’s very rare for someone to stay at one place as long as I did. But because of that turnover, especially creatives turnover, two to three years, there was a time when a long, many years when I was here when I didn’t know who knew and who didn’t know. And a lot of people didn’t know. And I could kind of tell when they didn’t know if I sort of made a joke or a reference to it in you know, in a in a subtle way. And then people were some people would just be squinting, I want to like not get the not get the joke or the reference. And then actually one of my friends had said to me, you know, I managed a McDonald’s account for night for the last nine years I was here, big account. And a lot of account people way more than creatives. And one of the newer Junior account. People had said to her supervisor, Hey, I heard a rumor that there’s a creative director here who used to be female and change genders. Is that true? And our supervisor was like, Yo, she’s like, well, who is it? And she said, it’s Chris, the creative director, work with make our guests she was she couldn’t believe it, you know what I mean? So it’s, it’s funny, and it’s great, because that’s all I ever wanted, you know, I never wanted my transition to define me. Which is what is a little bit challenging for me now, as I’ve written this book, and I’m trying to get it published and speaking and doing all these things. It is defining me. So for the last two years or so, it has been defining me and I gotta say, it’s been a struggle. It’s been a struggle for me, I’m not, I’m not used to that. And it’s never what I wanted. But I feel that it’s so important to share my story, right now that I feel like well, I am going to take one for the team. Yeah, because it’s kind of like going through this all over again. You know what I mean? There were a lot of people who didn’t know it, neighbors who didn’t know, newer friends who didn’t know my trainer, you know, there were there were a lot of people who didn’t know and then they just, I’ve just found out recently so recently Wow. So I started to you know, they Google me now and it’s it’s out there. You see me on chronicle you you know, I’m I have to be on Facebook, you know, not a big social media person, but I’m trying. So I have to be out there and people are you know, surprised.

Fei Wu 10:01
I think we, you know, I have younger cousins and I see the struggles that they have going to private schools going to college. They, it’s you look at people, the way they dress, the way they speak, the way they handle their clients, and so forth and so on. It’s a sea of sameness. We all to a certain degree, I look back, and I certainly have my years of trying to be the same. And then all of a sudden, I’m here, you know, in this, I was walking down the street with my mom, she’s like, these foreigners, I’m like, no, no, no, mom, they’re not foreigners. You are the foreigner here on the street, you are the different one. Right? And like, it’s so interesting. You don’t, you know, in China, I remember I have so many personal stories to share with you. Because I just been since we started the conversation in June, I’ve been thinking, like thinking of you this whole time. And it just a magical moment, because especially after listening to the podcast, I think about growing up. So I’m 32 I’ve, I’m sort of the first generation when the one child policy was institutionalized and started. So people always ask me, right, if you’re Chinese living in America, people want to ask you two questions, one of which is, you know, what is it like to be a girl? And how does your parents treat you differently, so forth and so on. And so I started thinking about this quite a bit, and kind of in parallel to your story as well, that for the longest time, you know, I wanted to be a boy, but for a different reason, different views. And, you know, I just didn’t I have a lot of boy cousins. And even until this day, a very close friend of mine said, you know, fair, your dad was, you know, genuine in the army and revealing that for the first time now. And what is it like for him to have an only daughter, like, do what was his struggle? I’m like, What? What do you mean, he didn’t struggle? He loved having me. This guy’s like, yeah, right. I started to break. I’m like, and then at the age of 30, I was just like, felt like what? You know what’s going on? I stopped thinking about this for a very long time. And so that’s why I’ve just so like, so look forward to speaking with you.

Chris Edwards 12:14
That’s crazy. I mean, but you always felt loved. I,

Fei Wu 12:18
I did I did I but you know, what’s interesting as a child, and which I think your childhood story is something I definitely want to delve into, is, as a child, there’s something that we’ve been told, and there’s something that we feel deeply, and I have in China, unfortunately, your parents don’t always tell you that they love you as

Chris Edwards 12:36
well. Well, you know, we never said I love you in our house. Yeah. I always knew I was loved. And I knew they loved me. And you know, they’d sign cards, love mom, dad, and we did the same. I think it was their generation. And because my friends say the same thing. And it wasn’t until I came back from college, and my older sister came back was really my older sister started. And she came back from college. And she started to say, you know, I love you. And, and I, you know, I was only a year behind her. So I was in college, and we kind of started it, and kind of guilted them into saying it back, you know, but then then we started to say it all the time. Yeah. But I think it was awkward for them, because their parents probably never said it to them. I think it was a generational thing. But I always felt loved. There was no question. But I just remember being so scared, to tell them even knowing that they loved me. I just I was like, do they love me enough? Deal with this, and let me be who I am and not be ashamed and deal with the ramifications of me going public with this because, you know, I felt like I would embarrass and humiliate them. And, you know, I knew they loved me as their child. And did they love as their daughter? Did they love me enough? As their son, you know, what was that going to be like? And that was the nervousness. And I just didn’t know. And looking back on it now, I can’t believe I ever questioned question that. I mean, it’s it. It really, you know, I get emotional thinking about it. How could I have ever thought that of them. And just the way that they’ve supported me and handled this has been just amazing. I would not be here today if they didn’t have their love and support. And it’s unfortunate because most kids who are transgender do not have that. And it’s, you know, a big part of the reason why the suicide attempt rate is so high.

Fei Wu 14:47
Yeah, I was very heartbroken. Learning that as well. And, you know, I think that really transitions into the question that I wanted to ask and after that Listening to your other podcasts like, why hasn’t that question been asked? And after speaking with Anna Ruth, she’s like, well, like, he was able to answer that during the 3% Conference, which is why now because, you know, listening to your story, I realized that’s a part that’s a part of your history, you know, you wanted to kind of leave behind, you have a new identity now, this is who you are. And all of a sudden, two years ago, you’ve, you know, basically, you came out and are sharing this story with the public, and you talk about the struggles. So why, why now?

Chris Edwards 15:34
Well, so I, I’d always, there are a couple reasons. And one of the reasons is, I’ve always been a person who believes that things happen for a reason. It gives me gives me, you know, I believe in God, and I believe things happen for a reason there’s a higher power. And, you know, I gotta say, being transgender is a nightmare. It is the worst, I would never wish it on my worst enemy. It just sucks. And it is, it is horrible thing to go through. And I always wonder, why. me why I’m, I’m a good person. I’m nice to people. I treat everybody with respect. I, you know, I, I’m just I’m not an evil person. Why would God make me this way? I just don’t understand. And I’ve been struggling to my whole transition my whole life, basically, why? And I started to think about, well, there’s a, there’s a couple things in play, you know, my, I have a loving and supportive family. I have parents who have the resources financially to afford the surgeries that I would need back then nothing was covered. And I’m a very stubborn and strong willed person. And I am, when I know something that I want, and something that needs to happen, I make it happen. And so, you know, I knew I was going to see this through. And then the other thing is, I’m a writer, and I’m articulate I can present and that’s just because of how what my job was. And when you put all these things together. If God had to stick it to somebody, I was a pretty good target. Because my odds of being successful were very high. And being a writer and somebody who who can present and speak about it articulately. And in just a regular conversational way. I think that was sort of maybe why maybe that was my reason. And that’s what I was supposed to do write about it, and talk to people about it and help change perceptions. So that was a big reason. And that’s sort of what I was thinking about, as I decided, You know what I gotta write, I’ve got to write this book. And if I don’t do it, now, I’m never going to do it. I tried to do it while I was at Arnold working, and I just, I was working 70 hour weeks, you know, and, and I, they were kind enough to let me try to do it part time. So I was working four days a week, and then I was gonna do the fifth day writing. And that just blew up in my face. So I was never going to happen. So I had been here a long time, and I was getting kind of burnt out anyway. And I was like, You know what, I just got to do it. I got to do this. Now. We’re gonna do it. And at that time, I don’t know if you remember this. For people in Massachusetts, they might remember this, but all over the news was Michelle, Costa lick, who was in prison for murder. And she was a male to female. And she was all over the news, because she was going to have gender reassignment and all the taxpayers were going to have to pay for the surgery. Do you remember that? Remember? Yeah, it was all over the news. And they were showing images of her that were not the least bit flattering. And again, and this murderer, you know, murderer, murderer, transgender murderer, you know, the pictures of of her and it was all that’s all what was in the news and what the media was showing. And it just, you know, I was, you know, already this is what the media does. And I was like, God, you know, can’t they just show people who are, quote, normal, who live everyday lives are successful in what their career is. And if you walk down the street, you’d never know in a million years, you know, that’s more the reality. But that’s not what you see it

Fei Wu 20:00
And then Caitlyn Jenner story as well, I mean, that’s

Chris Edwards 20:03
Hollywood. Yeah, that that, that came later. But so that was when that was three years ago, when I started to, I was like God, you know, I really need to change the face of this and try to change perceptions. And then the third reason was, I learned about this suicide attempt rate is 50% for kids, or before they turned 20 50% of all transgender kids will try to kill themselves. And, you know, my belief is that it’s because they don’t have any hope. They’re not getting support at home. And, you know, when I went through this, my parents didn’t have any success stories to turn to, there was nothing, they couldn’t look at someone who went through this and be like, Okay, well look at this person, you know, Chris could turn out like them, and that would be fine. Yeah, that would be great. And I feel that if there are more people like me who share their story, parents will have that kids will have that. And they’ll, they’ll see that there is hope. And if a parent sees their child could turn out, you know, I’m not saying Oh, you gotta you everyone wants to turn out like me, I’m not saying that. But I’m saying, you know, this didn’t define me. You know, I had a very successful career as a creative director, lots of friends, you know, dating all of that you can live a full and happy life. And this doesn’t have to define you unless you want it to, then maybe parents, when a kid comes out to them, the parent would be more supportive, the kids would have support, and maybe the suicide rate would drop. So that’s a long winded way of saying why now, but, you know, as I did tell you, I was struggling with it, because I had put it behind me, it was in my history, I was living my life, as a man the way I was meant to be. And this is why you don’t see many stories like mine out there.

Fei Wu 21:56
I see your action, you know, rather differently than what you had just described a few minutes ago, because what I see is bravery. You know? And it’s like, you know, you’ve had a lot of things happen. And you know, nobody could I could I couldn’t possibly tell, you know, where even imagine you you know, you were ever a woman, like it just never occurred to me, but yet, you’re coming out, and you almost become a target, right? You become an icon, in a sense, you become a target to people who are, you know, freaking out, because, you know, I find myself speaking about growth versus fixed mindset a lot lately. And so credit, you know, to the woman who will hopefully I’ll have all my podcasts in the new year, I already reached out to her. And, you know, I personally, I find it very difficult to say that why are you if anybody struggling with this, like, why are you struggling to believe that there are other people different than you are? I don’t understand why you’re struggling. You know, and why do you think that is?

Chris Edwards 23:06
I think, I think anything that’s different, or anything that challenges the status quo, or the way things are challenge beliefs, it’s easier for people to react that way than to change their own beliefs. And that’s, that’s the fallback. I mean, I don’t know if you heard Ben Carson, this comment. After the Houston the public accommodations bills that are there’s one in Boston that we’re hoping will pass and this is this is to give transgender people rights, not to be discriminated, discriminated against in public areas. And what is happening is they’re reducing it to the bathroom bill. That’s what they’re calling it, because the reason it’s getting shot down in cities and states, all over the country is there, there are groups that are instilling fear that if this bill passes, then and it’s mostly transgender women, so male to female, yeah, they will follow your young daughters into public restrooms and molest them. And that’s that’s the fear that they’re instilled in people these groups, right, so Ben Carson was asked about the one in Houston that did not pass and he said, you know, he was basically like, why don’t we just give? Why don’t mean how Scav transgenders, their own bathroom, you know, and he’s basically saying separate. He’s like, why should I he said something to the effect of why should I have to change? Why should we all be made to feel uncomfortable? You know, and my first thought was, oh, okay, well, should we go back to the Jim Crow laws, you know, when, you know, white people did that to black people, and there were Coloureds only bathrooms that that black people had to use. That’s pretty much what he’s saying. Um, so people would rather react that way, then change their own beliefs, it’s harder to open your mind and listen and accept other people. It’s just easier to just, yeah. And turn your back on it and think that they’re freaks and just not deal with it. Except that

Fei Wu 25:23
and yet you you’ve joined, I feel like you’ve joined a movement. And actually, I think you more instead of joining, you started your own movement, you initiate it.

Chris Edwards 25:34
Yeah, you know, I get I get, I get, I get hesitant when, when the talk of movements and activists and all of that, because I’m not an I not an activist, and I never want to be, and I never want to speak for an entire community, I never do that. My hope is that by sharing my own personal story, it can help people understand better, what it’s like, and that it isn’t a choice. And that, you know, no one would ever choose this path. It’s a nightmare, you would never choose it. Unless you were had no other choice. So it is you’re born that way. And you know, at a very early age, for the most part, I knew it four or five. And that’s all I claim to do. I just I’ll tell you my story and hope that people learn from it. Every just like no one gay person can speak for the whole gay community, no one straight person can or sis person they called non transgender people or sis, no one’s sis person can speak for the entire community. So there are lots of voices to be heard. And mine is just one of them.

Fei Wu 26:49
And I find that as I was doing some research for our topics, and obviously some of my listeners challenged me was like, are you ready? Are you knowledgeable enough to even conduct the interview? Right. So and I realized, you know, what, there’s an opportunity on the table here for me, is to learn more. And I had an experience and, you know, friends with people who are transgender? And because of that, I feel very appreciative of that experience. Because, you know, I think there are unfortunately, it will be great if we just self or self starters. But sometimes we are, we need to be triggered to think differently, right? To learn more, and I find more stories for transgender women than transgender men. Do you think statistically? It is, it is the case? Or is that an

Chris Edwards 27:42
eye? I think it’s probably even you know, but it looks that people say that to me, all the time that, I think because there’s a saying there’s a saying that, see if I get it right. For trans that for transgender women, it’s easier to pass in this in the sheets. With trans men, it’s easier to pass on the streets. And what that means is the surgery for male to female is much easier than surgery. For female to male, it’s it’s harder to add than it is to subtract. So more and it’s less expensive to sew more male to females are having surgeries. And because it’s less expensive, and it’s easier procedure and there have been more of them done. It’s more established that that procedure for a fee, female to male, less are having the surgeries and because it’s easier to pass, you know, I have I have air quotes going to pass on the streets, you might not know. But if, if if there are trans women who have transitioned later in life, it’s a lot. It’s a lot harder to pass. And that’s why this whole Caitlyn Jenner thing. There’s a lot of backlash because she’s had so many feminization procedures on her face. She was older when this happened. Yes, but you know, a lot of so when I say the surgery for the for a male to female is easier. I’m talking about the genital surgery. There are lots of other procedures that like Caitlyn did to make herself look more feminine and de master shows her face and what what other trans women are saying who can’t afford those procedures and maybe don’t even Wanna go through them? It’s painful. And it’s, it’s a scary thing. But they’re saying that it’s creating a beauty standard now that you have to fit into, I say, and so it’s, it’s hard, you know, it’s like, Why can’t people just look how they look and be accepted, but what what they’re saying is now, you know, with Caitlyn and other trans people who look like you’d never know, in a million years, and they’ve had these procedures, that’s now the ideal standard that all trans people have to have to get to

Fei Wu 30:33
that I never thought about that before. And their models

Chris Edwards 30:36
now that fundraiser page, ik general Cairo, I mean, they are beautiful women, and, you know, they’re trans women, they’re beautiful women, and, you know, when you start transitioning earlier, during, you know, ideally, you would start before puberty, and then you’d never have the puberty of the gender that you are not, you know, you wouldn’t have that physical puberty, they’re doing that now they have hormone blockers that can make that happen. And then, so for me, you know, if I had had that, I would have been taller, I would never have had breasts to have to remove them. You know what I mean? Like you, there are certain things you’re still going to have to take care of surgically if you choose to, but you bet your build and your you know, for for, for boys who who are going to transition to female, they wouldn’t have an Adam’s apple, they wouldn’t build the muscular skeletal of a man. So there’s a lot of differences. And that’s why, you know, there’s a controversy now the doctors are saying trans kids should be starting this now to give themselves a better outcome outcome. Yeah. And other people are saying they’re too young to know. And, you know, how do you know? And are they do? Can they? Do they have the emotional strain strength to do to do it at that age? You know, like, I don’t, those are good questions, answer those questions. It’s up to every person individually. And I, yeah, those are, I

Fei Wu 32:19
think, really interesting explorations. Because in order for the transition to happen, you do need a support network, meaning the doctors, you know, maybe the one 800 number to call, and then also just just meetups, just groups of people you can relate to?

Chris Edwards 32:35
Yeah, well, I’m talking to like, you know, yes, I would have preferred that, because I could have, you know, could have been taller, you know, I could have had, you know, a body that seemed more masculine, and I wouldn’t have had to undergo the same surgeries that I’ve had, but would I have been back then, at my age, you know, back then forget it, like, no one would have accepted it, I would have been, I don’t know what my life would have turned out like, and now I look at kids and kids are seem to be so much more accepting differences. But there’s still bullying. So if you were to go through that, you know, at that age, I don’t know, I don’t know what it would be like, and, you know, how, how my childhood would have been, you know, if I was bullied and ostracized, and that, but you know, I look at my nieces, their age, and they’re, they’re now 12 and 10. And when I told them, they were think they were, they were nine, and yeah, it was I thought they were 10 and eight. What was that all they were, and they had no idea. And so they knew me as their uncle SHINee. And I was Uncle, and they didn’t know

Fei Wu 33:51
Yeah, how do they react, how they respond to that.

Chris Edwards 33:53
They? They were, we were playing cards. And they were beating me, as usual. And we had a break. And Hannah and my sister when we had decided we were going to tell them, you know, with this book coming out, and they were very curious what my book was about, and

Fei Wu 34:11
they’re old enough to know as well.

Chris Edwards 34:13
Yeah. And and so, you know, I told them my sister brought up the book on purpose. And then I said, Yeah, well, hopefully publishers are looking at it now. And then hopefully, one of them will want to buy it. And then you know, you guys can read it, you know, and I said, Do you know what it’s about? And they said, Oh, yeah. Callie, the old one. She’s like, Yeah, it’s it’s a memoir. She knows the term memoir. Because I’ve taught, I’ve told her, and I said, Do you know Do you know the difference between a biography and a memoir? And I told her biography is the person’s whole life and a memoir I saw as a specific piece of it, got it and it could relate to something dramatic. There are some things that you know, just and, and I said, you know, you don’t know this, but I went through something very traumatic and it took a lot. It was a big struggle, and it was hard for me and I’m writing about it to help other people who might have to go through it. And so, you know, they were kind of looking at me worried, like, Oh, my God, you know, what was it to me, and just, it was so hard. I was so nervous, but I just said, you know, when I was born, I was born with a girl’s body. I didn’t want to say was born a girl. I wanted to be clear that it was it was, I was always a boy, to me. It was just this body. And they, you know, they were very surprised me, their eyes like wide. And I just talked about how I didn’t understand why everyone thought I was a girl. And why did I have this body when I knew when I was a boy, and, you know, told them a little bit about it. But spoken very plain terms. Very simple. Very, very simple. And so we had a long conversation about it. They didn’t ask any questions, which I thought they would. And they just kind of like sat there and nodded. And I said, Well, are you surprised? Yeah. Yeah. And I said, Do you have any questions you want to ask me? Or you know, you might not have any now but anytime. They didn’t have any questions, and then, you know, then Wendy said to me, why didn’t they ask him? I thought for sure. I’m like, I’m no probably asked you, not me. So that night, she put the Newbridge kingdom, they didn’t ask me any question. The next day. They didn’t ask any questions. And we were at the beach the next day. And you know, I didn’t have a shirt on and I’m standing there and I did catch Eva, taking a closer look at my chest than she may be normally would have. And I caught her and she looked away real quick. And then the next day, Carla said to me, or Wendy said to me, Carla has a question for you. And I said, Oh, okay, what is it? And she goes, am I going to be in the book? You know, that was her one question. That’s awesome. And then, and then three weeks later, when he called me. And she’s like, so should I I gotta tell you the story. You know, it’s been three weeks, they have not brought it up, have not asked us one thing. So Mike and I are sitting at the table with the girls. And she’s like, finally I brought it up. I couldn’t take it. Like so guys. I’ll go Stein is news. Do you know, do want to talk about it? Do you have any questions, you know, and Ava, the younger one, she goes, rolls her eyes. And she goes, we get it? Mom? You know what I mean? And they seen it on TV, they saw an episode of The Boss, what’s that? They’re Undercover Boss. Yeah, there was an episode with a transgender employee. And they had seen, they knew

Fei Wu 38:00
there’s not a big deal of don’t care. It’s almost like breaking, bringing out like, what sex is the parents? Like, let’s see tear down. Like, yeah, the kids is like, it’s not necessary.

Chris Edwards 38:09
So they were they were amazing, and it’s not. And I was worried our relationship was going to change and really has not changed one bit.

Fei Wu 38:18
I am not surprised about the ending. But I’m so glad you share that story. Because, you know, for for the person who needs to initiate a conversation, I can just imagine just the amount of sort of the dynamics and the emotions that that go through. Not easy. But when I was listening to the or sugar the other day about was, you know, one of the brothers is gay, and he was bringing his partner to the party. And the parents were really worried, like how the kids are going to react. And that was a whole conversation. Parents even wrote a story to Dear Sugar. And basically their sugars. Like, first of all, what is wrong with with adults, like, their kids are not even computing. They’re not relating in that way. And it’s because it’s us. You know, we’re putting all that all those filters.

Chris Edwards 39:07
And that’s why I think the sooner kids know, before they have those, you know, before adults instill those prejudices or or opinions on them, you know, they’re so pure at that age, they just they are accepting of differences and their generation is going to be the one that eradicates the prejudice. Yeah.

Fei Wu 39:27
Yeah, who knows? Maybe I have a feeling there’s so many the past 100 years, especially the past 50 years. So interesting. I’m so intrigued by I’m not really a student of history or I’m not necessarily good at it’s a subject I was just frowned upon was like, in China too many too many years of history, you know, and, but I find it to be so fascinating to witness you know, the simple phenomenon of people wanting to keep a job for the rest of their entire life, you know, and versus now like what We’re all trying to do something different. We’re doing podcasts, and we’re writing a book. And that imagine doing that even 2030 years ago, people think that you are crazy. Like you’re setting up that the, that’s not a good example for people to learn from you. I mean, so, but things are changing now. And I, you know, I feel the same way of to a certain degree coming to America, when I was 16, in the year of 2000, there are a lot of people before me, but there weren’t as many high school students coming, you know, to the US and all by themselves. So, to a certain degree, I felt a responsibility to do a number of things, if I may just kind of lay them out. One is that at a young age, you can still establish yourself, you can work hard, you can, in my case, there are people watching me to fail because I had a really good life in China. My, my parents were very established. And you know, they have a network of people who would just hire me after college. I don’t know what they’re thinking. But then also, secondly, I feel like there was that pre preconceived conception and misconception about Chinese people in the US, right? One Your English is difficult to be and you know, you’re just impossible to to be understood for one, and you do certain things, you eat certain food, you behave a certain way, you only hang out with certain types of people. I mean, those were all true. And one of my most pleasant surprise as I received this card upon graduation from my physics teacher, and he wrote down and it was amazing man, and you wrote down as I you change my perception about Chinese people, you know, and I thought that was so powerful. And thirdly, it kind of just like hit at home, as well as the fact that you know, Chinese people are physically sort of weak and that you are nerds, right. You read books, you’re good at math, but you can do sports. So I I, out of all the sports I could have chosen. I was a really, I loved playing ice hockey in Beijing. And a little did I know that coming, I was just telling my friend, co workers downstairs the other day that I was so good at two things in China, speaking English, and playing hockey. The moment I arrived in this country is like the both of them. I was like the worst at both of them. And it especially going up to school in Maine. Oh, yeah. People specialize in Esaki. Daddies Bill ranks when I was I did that. And then there were people. In Maine, playing hockey in Maine, I walk into the so funny to walk into the ice rink, people look at me, like, I only see you people on TV. They’re kids who told me that they only saw people like me on TV. And it’s really interesting to see me in person. And then after a little while, and then we didn’t have a girls team. So I was playing with the boys. And then I saw and I wish my parents were there, you know, the kind of because I was scared to I wasn’t the best on the team. But I needed to do I just needed to do the entity, you know. And then then there are people from the school, my teacher will come watch me play. So and I think it will take time. And I think it takes courage. And it really just that determination. So again, in a parallel story, I’m fully supportive of what you’re doing. And I hope you keep going,

Chris Edwards 43:22
you know, what you said about when that person came up to you and said, you’ve changed your teacher, you change my perception, you know, I, I’ve done a few of these speaking engagements. And it is so gratifying to me. I love I love doing and I love. The best part is, you get off the stage. And people come up to you afterward and say, say those things to you. And they they wait to talk to you. I couldn’t make it to the bathroom after I’ve been holding it the whole time. I was up there and I couldn’t get to the bathroom for two hours. Yeah. Because so many people would just wanted to say to me, what you said, Make me understand better. One woman came up to me and she she was the first one to grab me and she said I You changed my perception completely. And I said, Oh, great. And she said, you know, my son is in high school, and his best friend is transgender and just flaunt it all over the place and you know, comes over to the house with these, the fingernail, the painted nails and the clothes and you know the boys and you know, when I see him, I have to leave the room. And I’m thinking, okay, you know what? And she said, but after hearing your talk, I am ashamed of myself. Wow. And the next time he comes to the house, I’m gonna give him a big hug. And he said well Call him or her when you do that, you know, but I mean, just hearing that, okay, I changed one, there’s one person, you know, and if I can just keep. If if my story can help people understand and get them to be more accepting, then that’s great. And it just affirms that I’m doing the right thing. And by writing this book, it is going to help because sometimes, you know, when you’re, you write the book, and yet it’s your own story. And yeah, you think it’s interesting, but what do I do other people think it’s interesting, I don’t know. And the first speaking engagement I get for the ad club here to seven over 700 people, that moment for me, confirmed that I was doing the right

Fei Wu 45:46
thing. I wasn’t among the audience of which I regretted big time, but I spoke with someone who was there. And she absolutely loved it. She loved your speech, the same person and my friends from other agencies went to the 3% conference, and told me your speech was hands. I mentioned your name, or there are many names that I could throw around. And this is a woman a new, she’s from India, and she said that was hands down the most incredible experience to hear Wow, it was amazing. Because I had that time. I actually had dinner with her just last last Friday, I believe. And I had not seen her for a year. I was very jealous of her being able to go to 3% conference. And she went and she came back. She shared this. And I said, but hold on. So I pulled on my cell phone I shared I showed her your email. She’s like, No way. And Siebel. I wrote, I emailed you and I like I had this kind of weird feeling as I was on the train, because we had only exchanged emails a couple of times. And every time I write to you, were you responded, You responded right away, wholeheartedly, you know, emails, me I know, you’re right or so maybe I’m not saying this to other people who aren’t. But it just very, very emotional and very, very authentic. And I was so I was on the train, I read your message or like, say, I will, you know, the book, but how can we make the podcast better? And I know that, and I was so touched by so I had to tell you, I think I probably surprise you that who is this person? yet? So I think if you ever question how you come across, I think that message and that feeling is universal, that if I were to choose anybody, I will choose you.

Chris Edwards 47:29
Thank you. Yeah, well, that’s good to hear, you know, I try to keep that’s my goal, you know, when I’m speaking or when I’m writing that, that I be the same person, you know, I’m not. When I’m on stage, I’m still meeting when I’m talking to you, I’m still me and women, or when I’m blogging or writing the book, and I try to keep that voice because that’s my voice, you know, I can’t can’t change the voice. And part of the thing with the book is that, you know, I had some readers read it, you know, you have a group of readers FTD, right, something that just sort of went through and give you some thoughts. And all of them said to me, it sounded like it was you sitting next to me telling you, when I read when they read it, it sounded like it was be talking to them, which to me, then meant, okay, then I’m doing what I want to do. Now, do publishers find that as appealing, I don’t know, because, you know, my writing is not heavy, it is not flowery, or intellectual, you know, I’m an ad guy I write, I write, like, I speak and I write, like, I write commercials. And, you know, my goal is to whether I’m speaking or or with the book is to, you know, in advertising we, we engage, and we entertained. And then we slip in the education, things like what we want them to know about a product of what we want them to learn. We slip that in there in the middle. And the goal is that they’re entertained and engaged by the commercial, or whatever the piece of advertising is that then they will learn. If you just start throwing facts at people, they’re not going to pay attention to it. So that’s sort of how I, you know, that’s the important thing. And there’s a big difference between somebody teaching you about transgender issues and teaching you the terminology and teaching you what to say and what not to say, versus hearing somebody’s story. Very big difference.

Fei Wu 49:43
I would love to see you self publish your book.

Chris Edwards 49:47
Well, I’ll be making a decision soon. And I I’ve already if the self publishing happens, it will happen but I also have an offer from a publisher. I’m considering now and I will be still waiting to hear from others. But by the end of this month, I hope I will have all the information in and and by go with the offer I have now on the table, the book will be out in July. Wow, it takes a while to do it. But they have a process they go through. Of course they have editors though, right? And self publishing. If I could just put it on Amazon. That’s one. That’s one way to do it. But I really wanted a distribution network. Yeah. So I don’t know, I’m still weighing all the options right now. But I have to make a decision because I am not a patient person. And this has been a very long process. For me. It’s been a long process, and I was not expecting it to, you know, take this long. Yeah, well, well, yeah,

Fei Wu 50:55
I know. It’s totally for a different podcast, but I’m so glad I brought up James health teacher who is Yeah, who’s gonna be you someone I’m confirming to podcast with me as well. It’s great. Yeah. And then I gotta

Chris Edwards 51:07
text him. And actually, Oh, yeah. Going to please do the four digits. Yeah.

Fei Wu 51:14
What kind of producers face sending a nine digit phone number? That was pretty funny. He’s he’s had Oh, I also want to mention that James has a Thursday afternoon, I think 3pm Eastern Standard Time a Twitter chat. So he’s actively responding to responds. Oh, that’s great. Yeah. So I will send you the information. But before I feel like,

Chris Edwards 51:35
we haven’t even gotten to all your other questions.

Fei Wu 51:38
I know, what are some of the, you know, I always feel this way. I always prepare and then but I almost never look at the questions again, because you’ve taken me to so many we knew

Chris Edwards 51:48
that would happen is kind of go around. Yeah.

Fei Wu 51:53
Well, one of the questions, I think maybe you have already gotten there, and we’ll double check. One of my favorite question is, what are some of the questions that you wish people would ask you? But haven’t yet, you know, feel like some of the questions may be more generic, but

Chris Edwards 52:08
I wish people would ask. It’s funny, people asked me questions all the time. So I’ve been asked pretty much everything. What what I do find is, you know, people often say, a big a big question is what? What are you not supposed to say to somebody? Yeah. And I think the worry is what should I not be saying to someone who’s transgender? You know, that that seems to be a popular, that’s clarify that? Yeah, that seems to be a popular one. And I think that most people know, at least I hope they know by now that you should not ask if they’ve had or planned to have surgery. And I explained this at the 3% conference. And I make a point to explain it, because people say it, but they never explain why you shouldn’t ask. It’s an invasive question. So it’s none of your business. That seems to be the face value of it. But it’s offensive. It’s an offensive question. And the reason it’s an offensive question, is because by asking someone who’s transgender, if they’ve had surgery or plan to have surgery, what you’re implying to them is they’re not the gender they affirm they are unless they have surgery to alter themselves. Yeah. And many transgender people never have surgery. For a number of reasons, you can never know what, what someone’s what’s going on in their head or what their reasons are, and there are plenty, believe me, why you wouldn’t. So by saying that, you’re implying that, well, it’s not legit until you have the surgery and change your body to match it. Yeah. And that’s, that’s not true. I, I also clarify that, you know, there’s a difference between being offensive and being unintentionally hurtful. And I get it takes a lot to offend me. And there was There was one incident, which I’ll tell you about, which was very offensive. I was at a lecture. And this was a well educated, bestselling author, who was doing a seminar on self publishing. And it was a small group that ended up showing up and this was in Cambridge, by the way. So you think people would be and he lives in Cambridge. So You Think Forward Thinking progressive person, and he asked everyone to go around and say wire, why are you what are you hoping to get out of this? You know, what’s your situation? So it got to me, and I said, I’ve written a memoir. cuz it’s called balls. And I said what, you know, it was about my transition from female to male and, and I’m what I’m trying to determine, you know what route I should go and his face and I was like, okay, because I, you know, you may look at me and never think in a million years and that sort of what His attitude was and his response in front of the group to me was wow, you know, you look very convincing. You could even use a shave. And so that’s offensive because, you know, if someone says, Wow, you pass really well, a lot of people get offended by that even I don’t, but a lot of people do. But when someone says, You look convincing, that is an overt way of saying you’re trying to fool people, you know, you’re really not, but you’re trying to you’re, you got a good act going on. And so that that, to me was offensive, because it was so overt. And it was in front of public people who these people know. And then he kept making jokes about it through awkward then the next to the woman sitting next to me, it was her turn. And she, she said, he said, Okay, and what’s your name? And she said her name? And he goes, and have you always been a woman? You know, it was like one thing after another with this guy, and I almost walked out. And then honestly, I’m like, You know what, I need to see how far is he really gonna go with this. And he took it for the whole hour, a whole hour. And then I left. And then his email address was in one of the things he gave us. I sent him a very long email and made it a teachable moment. For him, did he respond? He did respond. And I said, I, you know, I laid out every comment he made and why it was offensive, and, and that he was very lucky, it was me sitting there and not somebody else who might have punched him in the face, or, you know, blasted him online, and really humiliated her. I blogged about it on the Huffington Post, but I didn’t use his name or anything like that someone else might have just done it. Yeah. And he apologized right away. And he said, I’d like to call you if I may and apologize to in person and said, That’s not necessary. But you know, I appreciate it accept your apology. So that to me is offensive. Then there’s people who are just, they don’t, they’re trying to compliment you. They’re struggling, they don’t know what to say. And they’re, and you know, that they’re not trying to be offensive, and they’re not trying to be hurtful, but things they say can be hurtful. And the thing I say that that hurts me the most is if somebody says to me, what did your name used to be? And that might seem innocuous. And when I tell someone that they’re like, really, that is offensive, and I said it isn’t defensive, it’s hurtful. Because what you’re doing is bringing me back to a time in my life, where I went, I was ready to kill myself. Like why would you want to send me back to a horrible time and place? And like if people say, Oh, I can’t I can’t picture you in a dress. I can’t did you go to your prom? Like, did you wear a prom dress? Like things like that? Are? You’re putting me there? Why are you putting me there? You know what I mean? And I think they think they’re complimenting me by saying they could never picture it in a million years looking at me, but it is hurtful. And you never want to make someone who’s transgender forced them to go back to that time when they were that other self that they hated. So I think people don’t understand the difference. And that is, there is a big difference.

Fei Wu 59:10
There’s a lot of information processing right now. Yeah, it’s absolutely true. And, and I, I want to sort of apologize on behalf of a Chinese people because we always struggle with pronouns. Because in Chinese, I want to kind of just give you a heads up like a big thing. Definitely. It’s huge. And then we the reason for me to say that is nearly everybody I’ve worked with interacted with because in Chinese if the there’s no differentiation in terms of the not in the written form, they’re different. The way you say them is the same. Oh, wow. Personally, I caught myself in the first couple of years since I gotten here. That’s one mistake. I just I really have to think like before.

Chris Edwards 59:54
Well, it is hard. It’s hard for people and I understand that and you know when I was going through this My therapist was like, Listen, you have to be on people, and you can’t keep letting it slip. Because the more you let it slip, the longer it’s going to take for people to they need to know you’re serious. And they need especially when I did, I was the only person that anyone had ever met. Done it. So I did that. But I was, I was respectful about it, you know, and I know people are trying, it’s one thing if you are just spitefully on purpose, not saying the right pronoun, but for the most part, people are trying Yeah, and I don’t get offended by a right. But, you know, even sometimes randomly, like my sister, or my parents will say the wrong pronoun still. And they’re like, Oh, my God, where did that come from? I don’t know. But knock it off. You know, but here’s the other thing. I’m asked a lot. Well, what can we do to make trans people more comfortable? What What should we be saying? What should we be doing? And I appreciate people asking that wanting to know. But the fact is, I think transgender people could be doing a lot more to make other people feel comfortable around them. And that’s what I did. That’s why my transition, I think, was so successful, because I put myself in other people’s shoes. And it’s really hard now, and I feel with this whole, there’s, there’s not just transgender, that’s an umbrella term. And I think people were just starting to grasp male to female, female to male in the pure form. Now it’s gender non conforming. And that’s the big thing. Now where you’re on a skid, you know, your gender fluid, you may feel feminine, one day or masculine another day, and you might want to be called this pronoun, and one day and this pronoun analogy, and it’s really hard for people to be like what, you know, it’s, it’s a struggle for a lot of people to comprehend this and understand it. And a lot of the younger generation now that are coming out, in this way, just are really upset if you don’t jump on that bandwagon right away and get those pronouns, right. Or they they want to be called gay, you know, the plural pronoun, and it’s really hard for people to adjust. A friend of mine is a teacher and therapist and is trying and he’s really conscious, really conscientious about it, and always asked me for advice. And, you know, she slips up one time, and she’s, she’s like, Oh, my God, I felt horrible. The, the person was like, shooting knives at me with their eyes. And I, you know, I messed up once, and it’s like, God, you know, you gotta give people a break. And I do feel that transgender people need to just loosen up a little bit and just know people are it’s as a struggle that understand and that people are trying. And I think, in general, the trans community could be more helpful in helping people understand and and being a little more tolerant, you know, we’re asking everyone else to be tolerant, and we need to be tolerant back.

Fei Wu 1:03:12
Yeah, it’s definitely it goes two ways.

Chris Edwards 1:03:15
And you can tell you can tell when someone’s purposely not getting it right. Just just to spite you. And then you can tell when someone slips up and is trying, yeah, and you’ve got to distinguish and base your reactions, according to that.

Fei Wu 1:03:32
And I think like everything else, the more opportunities and exposures that we can just hang out, like people, you know, I think, you know, instead of saying transgender people can only hang out with each other, I’m sure their stories and things that

Chris Edwards 1:03:49
yeah, it’s it’s funny, you know, a lot of people asked me, Do you have a lot of transgender friends? And to be honest, I don’t you know, I know a few people. My closest friends are not transgender, and it doesn’t matter to me, it’s like, I’m friends with the person because of who they are. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, it isn’t. Oh, I need to only be around trans, you know, trans people. I mean, hey, it’s like, it’s who the person is. Yeah, they happen to be trans great. They’re not fine. Doesn’t matter. It’s funny if you asked

Fei Wu 1:04:23
me like, Are most of your friends Chinese? I mean, because you haven’t noticed actually much easier to make friends with Americans. You know, they’re not as large of a supply then. And then now because I it’s so interesting, because when you witness like people are a little bit older, like in their, say, in their 20s to come to a new country, they tend to be slightly more nervous or take longer to adapt, and they tend to hang out with people their own kind and for a little while, anyway, for me, I had no chance. I was 16 years old. I was in the middle of Maine, in a town with no more than 20,000 people. I had to make a choice. You know, that was my own choice to be able to learn English a little more quickly and all of that. And now I am seeing the reverse effect of, well, now I actually I sort of, I say hi, where I purposely make friends with people in the office who are Chinese, as well as everybody else. Because there’s something new, I can learn from them that by not having come to this country at such a young age, I feel like there’s sort of that gap in my own knowledge, you know, not having gone through college. There new words, I’m learning every day when I talk to them. So yeah, I think it’s really about it’s easy to say being open minded. But how boring would life be? It’s right, you know, but just by talking to you, I feel like, you know, there’s, you know, I feel like it’s like a kaleidoscope to be able to be exposed to different people, different cultures. You know, I came all the way here and yeah, and love traveling. I think this just like everything else in life. So it’s really fluid, rather than, you know, putting labels on people and events. Yeah. Do you know what what Kevin Costner so funny, I have not referenced them in like 20 years, but, but because of this podcast, he said, he thought is so interesting. If you have time, I will listen to it. He talks about to cancelling out the noise in your own head. That’s a decision that you have to make. And from that point on, that’s the only way for you to be happy, is when you can make yourself happy. So I thought it was really powerful in a way that because there’s I still hear, you know, I meditate at night, and I only follow certain people, whether it’s podcasting or, you know, I interview everybody who has so far been on my podcast, or my personal collection of mentors. And I feel like to me, the journey is about sharing my fortune being, being a woman being an Asian woman being, you know, having living here as a teenager and gone through a lot of hardships. You know, going from contemplating this, you know, having a podcast for years and think that nobody will ever hear this. Nobody cares at all. Like I’m a minority. I had all these thoughts and all of a sudden, after I interviewed Dorie, Clark

Chris Edwards 1:07:17
Dorie, no, I

Unknown Speaker 1:07:18
just adore her. She’s the best. I just want to carry her like a person

Chris Edwards 1:07:23
know, how did you how did you meet her? So I

Fei Wu 1:07:27
read her book stand out. But actually she was then, you know, like, you don’t really don’t remember people’s names. Like that was a great book. And I read all her like Harvard Business Review and all these things. But it was from Stephen Shapiro, who was on an earlier episode of my podcast. He’s also like the National Speakers Association. He’s amazing. He’s amazing. So, so he introduced me to her. And on my podcast with Dora, she’s like, I’m gonna You have to talk to Chris Edwards. She’s out. Yeah. And then of course, and I come to work. They’re like, Wait, we all know who Chris Edwards is. going on. So she Yeah,

Chris Edwards 1:08:06
she is she has always I met her at a conference at a grocery conference. And like, she invited me to her house for dinner with friends. Like, the next day. I’m like, Yeah, go. Great. See the greatest person. And she’s always tried. She’s tried to help me. She tweets. She’s quoted me in some of her articles. And she’s always tweeted out trying to

Unknown Speaker 1:08:29
help me. That’s gonna be the two of us go crazy for you now. So great.

Chris Edwards 1:08:33
And I mean, and just like hearing from you, I was like, wow, okay. Yeah. Like, I’m like, I can’t believe she even wants to. I don’t. I I’m like, Yeah, I’ll do it. I can’t believe that you even want to. Yeah, like why me? Okay. Sure. You know, it just, I’m still continually surprised. When when people, you know, value the story enough to, to and I’m pleasantly surprised. doesn’t make me feel like it’s worth telling. And writing the book was the right decision.

Fei Wu 1:09:12
And there’s no question about that now.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:18
To listen to more episodes of the face world podcast, please subscribe on iTunes where visit face that is F EIS wo rld where you can find show notes links, other tools and resources. You can also follow me on Twitter at FaZe world. Until next time, thanks for listening

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