Brandon Voss

Brandon Voss: Learning with an FBI Hostage Negotiation Expert (#161-162)

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Our guest today: Brandon Voss

Have you been told that you are a bad negotiator? Or perhaps negotiation is an area you have been trying to work on without much success? I have some good news. 

This episode is a part of a Negotiation Trilogy on Feisworld. 

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Brandon Voss is the thought leader at Black Swan regarding negotiator types. He has made it his mission to teach clients how to identify the types of negotiators and has developed a methodology for dealing with each type in the most successful way.

Brandon is the son of Chris Voss, the FBI Hostage Negotiation expert who founded the company The Black Swan Group.

There is no doubt in my mind that Chris is the best negotiator I have ever seen, but Brandon is a close second. After all, he had to negator with his father since he was born. 

Brandon’s upbringing was fascinating to me. How did he negotiate with his father to get his PlayStation at the age of 8? What is the dynamic of their professional life together not only as father and son, but as colleagues? 

Chris Voss was interviewed twice on Feisworld Podcast, the first one here, and the second one with Chris’ client Tara Cardinal here. These episodes remain to be two of the most popular episodes we have ever produced. 

Brandon was credited in the Best-Selling book Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It by Chris Voss and Tahl Raz. 

This book was brought to my attention by multiple guests on Feisworld. A client told me this is his #1 most gifted book he bought for family, friends and his own clients. 

Media links:

To learn more about Brandon Voss and the incredible company he works for, visit https://blackswanltd.com/

Also check out the Edge blog (it’s one of the few I subscribe to and read): https://blog.blackswanltd.com/the-edge

 

Show Notes (Part 1)

  • [03:00] How is it like to work with your dad?
  • [05:00] What was your participation in Never split the difference?
  • [12:00] What’s your earliest memory of you negotiating with your dad?
  • [20:00] When did you decided to join the Black Swan Group and how was that transition like?
  • [27:00] Tell us about how your take about marketing your business versus your dad’s opinion. On which aspects do you agree/disagree?

Show Notes (Part 2)

  • [39:00] Tell us some story that you recall about harsh times within your business, maybe miscommunication, or responsibilities.
  • [49:00] Fei and Brandon talking about the parent-child dynamic and how that influences their own businesses.
  • [54:00] How do you balance/use your emotional intelligence in your daily life and how do you balance when to do things alone versus partnering with others?
  • [57:00] How do you react when people can’t tell that you are related to your father?

 

Favorite Quotes

[08:00] From a negotiation context, our approach is really from a human nature response. Being able to size somebody and then being able to tell how they are going to react just because they are a person, not because of their race, or the language they speak or where they come from. Just because of natural human nature responses, how do I use that to inform my communication path with that person.

[28:00] If my father didn’t think I could do the job, he wouldn’t have hired me. That’s why it was much easier for me to take the job, because it wasn’t that he was offering the job because I’m his son.

[29:00] We use hostage negotiation techniques to solve business negotiation challenges. And one of the underlying pieces of that is that in hostage negotiation there is no compromise.

[39:00] I always enjoy meeting people that are not from the US originally, because there’s a perspective about how they look at life and what it takes to succeed that is unique.

[42:00] There have been times where we’ve been at each other’s throats. Business decisions, or how we were handling a client, or how we were executing certain things. But ultimately, our foundation, the relationship as father and son is what kept us together in a lot of ways.

Transcript

Part1

(Part 1). Brandon Voss Learning with an FBI Hostage Negotiation Expert.m4a: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

(Part 1). Brandon Voss Learning with an FBI Hostage Negotiation Expert.m4a: this m4a audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Fei Wu:
Hey. Hello. How are you? This is a show for everyone else. Instead of going after Top 1% of the world. We dedicate this podcast to celebrate the lives of the unsung heroes and self-made artists.

Brandon Voss:
From a negotiation context. You know, our approach is really based on human nature response, you know, being able to size somebody up and then being able to tell how they're going to react just because they're a person, not because of their race and not because of the language they speak or the culture they come from, but just because of natural human nature responses. How do I use that to inform my communication path with that person? You know, we use hostage negotiation techniques to solve business negotiation challenges. So, you know, bringing those same the same communication techniques where you're constantly building rapport and building trust, even with a hostage taker. Yes. Or a barricaded suspect. And then how that leads you to a place where you don't have to compromise your position to make a deal. There's been different times where we've been at each other's throats over different things, you know, just business decision or the way that we're handling a client or the way that we're executing certain things, which at those times I think our foundational relationship is father and son is what kept us together and in a lot of ways. Being emotionally intelligent is also very closely tied to success. And that success in business, that success in your personal life and also in negotiation. If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far. Go together.

Fei Wu:
Hi everyone. Feisworld Podcast listeners, I'm super thrilled that you're listening to a brand new episode. I'm here with Brandon Voss, who is the director of Operations for the Black Swan Group. So the last name Voss may sound familiar to you guys. And also the company, the Black Swan Group is also familiar because I've interviewed Brandon's dad, Chris Voss, twice on the show already. So Brandon, I'm so thrilled that you're here and your you're funny and your your very charismatic as well, just like your dad. So thank you for joining me.

Brandon Voss:
I appreciate that. Thanks for having me on. I guess I guess I'm I'm a benefit of good genes.

Fei Wu:
Indeed. Indeed. So at first of all, you know, I think a lot of the listeners may be wondering, especially people listening to this episode are familiar with really your work and your dad's work are wondering what is that dynamic like? I mean, I'm sure people ask you this all the time, so how do you usually respond to that? What is it like to work with your dad?

Brandon Voss:
Well, I think probably what a lot of people imagine, especially since, you know, we we work in the negotiation space, I think they probably imagine that behind closed doors that my father and I have very sophisticated conversations that should probably be archived somewhere so that people can study them. Right. Because of the negotiation skills and the battle back and forth. And that's probably not it at all, unfortunately. I will say when it comes to family, at times, keeping your poise and sticking to your negotiation skills is is rather difficult. So I will admit there have been times when our conversations have whittled down to just an argument over who's right and who's wrong. But, you know, at the end of the day, I mean, it's. We have a lot of fun working with each other. And, you know, our conversations, I think I think these days are probably a lot more productive for two reasons. And one is probably because I'm older and I'm more experienced, I'm not the same stupid kid that I was when I when I when we first started working together. But then also, in addition to that, he moved to the opposite coast. We were both living in the D.C. area and he moved out to LA about three or four years ago. And you know, what's the phrase? Right distance makes the heart grow fonder. And it's usually in relationship to, you know, spouses and things. But, you know, even for a father and son relationship, we appreciate when we get to spend time together much more these days because, you know, we only see each other when we're working, when we're doing training. So the conversations don't don't get as heated these days. I think they're probably much more productive.

Fei Wu:
I love that. And, you know, a lot in case some people listening to this don't know who your dad is, Your dad is D And actually you co-authored together created a book called Never, Never Split the Difference. And of course, it's about negotiation and that's the space you're in. In fact, I saw the book, both audio and the text version to be, you know, absolute top ranked and it's category. And I was really thrilled to see that. And also some of my friends and also guests who have appear on the show repeatedly told me that never split. The difference is the number one most gifted book that they've, you know, given to their friends and colleagues.

Brandon Voss:
Yeah, I know. And I appreciate that. Thank you very much for for recognizing that. And and while I'm not officially a co-author, when you look at the book cover, you know, Chris did a my dad made it made a really nice gesture in the acknowledgements in regards to to our to to my involvement. But even at the end of the day, Tall Ra's who's who's the guy who is the real the real writer behind the project? I mean, the the brain trust, if you will, comes a lot from my father, from Chris and myself. Tall is the one that put the words on paper. And I think I think the guy's a genius. You know, I don't I don't think the book would be what it was without him. You know, a lot of people don't know that we went through several writers before we got to tall and and I'm glad we had the experience of going through several writers because I think if we were if we were put on to tall early on in the process, we would look back on and say, Yeah, writing a book is easy. You know, you just you get an author, you tell them a couple of things and they put it together. And having gone through the struggle really made us appreciate what Hall brings to the table. And it was it was a fun process. Tall actually came and he stayed at my house here in in Maryland for for two days.

Brandon Voss:
He stayed stayed in our guest room. And when I say our you know, me and my fiance, Maya, you know, he interviewed Chris and I for two straight days in my kitchen and he had recording equipment set up all over the place. I think I think he had seven different recording devices that he was using. And we just I mean, like 16 to 18 hours for two days in a row of just like interview style, breaking it down, you know, walking them through our instruction and a lot of different ideas. And he just he basically just stayed quiet and just and asked a few questions here and there and kept the momentum going. And then he went home, right? He spent two days with us and then he went back to New York. And a couple of months later, he started sending us chapters. And so, you know, he he made the writing process not only enjoyable, but I mean, what he brings to the table and his ability to to tell the story through just being able to write it down. It's one thing to tell a story verbally as a speaker. You know, Chris and I are both speak. It's another thing to be able to put it on paper and when people read it, they have trouble putting it down. And that I think Paul gets he deserves a lot of credit for that. So, you know, I'm very thankful that that we got to work with him.

Fei Wu:
Wow. What? I really enjoy meeting your dad in person and then talking to you for the first time last week is something really profound, which is that you both are such thankful people that you give credits to other people. You really appreciate the people that you have in your lives, even to be honest, as small as the gesture of even putting you on the show and then you thank me for it. But I think this is the type of message I really want to spread because, you know, there are a lot of people who are either privileged or, you know, come from a wealthy background. And I think that what's lacking these days, you know, it's all about taking credit for things, for people, but it's not about, you know, people become less thankful and in acknowledging the things that other people did. And that's what that's what makes a huge difference. I think the reason why Paul RAZ was able to work on the book in this way, I think, is because you and your dad enabled him to do so with that, with that trust that you have instead of dictating creatively, Oh, you should do it this way. You should say it that way. You know what I mean?

Brandon Voss:
Hmm. Yeah, I would agree. I think in an effort to not go too far down the rabbit hole of of just life in general society. Right. But I agree with you 100%. I think people are much more worried in general these days about the credit that's due to them. And, you know, I think some of that is human nature. You know, it's interesting, you know, the being in the industry that we're in and taking a different look at life and we see people through a different, different prism now, at least I know I do. And a lot of it's because of my father. But from a negotiation context, you know, our approach is really based on human nature response. You know, being able to size somebody up and then being able to tell how they're going to react just because they're a person, not because of their race or not because of the language they speak or the culture they come from, but just because of natural human nature responses, how do I use that to inform my communication path with that person? And so staying on that same front of human nature, I think it's it's it's it's within us in some capacity to want to receive credit. And I think, you know, at times we get overboard. Right. As people and I agree with you, I think it's I think it's important to be thankful.

Brandon Voss:
And at the end of the day, nobody does anything by themselves. You know, everybody's everybody's had help somewhere from somebody, even if it was just a little bit of help. Right. Even if it's, you know, somebody's opening the door for you to get in the building of your first job, you know, whatever it is, you know, somebody helped you along the way. And and those people, you know, they deserve credit, too. And we have a great relationship with tall. I mean, last time Chris and I were in New York, we took them to our favorite steak place, Wolfgang's. And I believe it said like 33rd and Park or something like that. You know, we were talking about potential new book ideas. And one of the things we got a great relationship with Tall and he's been very honest with us about kind of what he thinks are approach to both business and to a future publication should be. And that's been extremely valuable, especially since he's not directly in the business, right? He's on the outside looking in, and I think a lot of that is predicated him wanting to be that up front with us and be very candid. I think it goes back to the thankfulness. I think he does he does feel that. And he also appreciates it as well.

Fei Wu:
Hmm. That's awesome. I just just like the way that I've developed the relationship very differently using podcasting rather than what I call friends or connections by proximity. Right? You work in a full time job. You may or may not connect with the people around you, but because they are there, you're thinking, you know, why not? I mean, granted, I did. I mean, I appreciate so much of some of the colleagues who have stayed with me, and we've developed really deep in our relationship. But in general, I think people get lazy, don't really seek out that relationship, that partnership. And I mean, I we would all be so thrilled if you guys partner on another book. Well, there's still so much to learn to digest in this current one. And I loved one of the conversation. I got like, Oh, giggly when we started talking about it last week was your upbringing, Brandon, But in particular, your earliest memory of you negotiating with your dad, who is a superman in that regard. So kids negotiate all the time. So what was that experience like?

Brandon Voss:
Well, you know, I looking back on it, I have to admit I feel like I was taken advantage of slightly because, you know, I was probably eight or nine years old. And I'm negotiating with this this this world renowned hostage, you know, hostage negotiation guy. Right. And didn't really know what I was getting into. Right. Because for me, he's just he's just my dad, right? Everybody else, he's this special person. But and not that being a dad isn't special because it is, I think for all for all men that have had the opportunity to do so. But at the end of the day for me, right, he's just my dad. So it was when the first PlayStation came out and I don't remember the year, but I do remember very specifically when the first PlayStation hit the market and like how big of a deal it was. And and, you know, I was not you know, I think a lot of people probably assume that I was a spoiled child because I was I was an only child. And that was not the case at all. I think, you know, the looking at it, it was much more like, I wish I had siblings so I could blame things on other children. Right. Because it's like when things get broken, the house, there's no question as to which child it was. Right. You can't you can't you can't escape the the punishment. There's no way around it. So and, you know, I was I was I got to admit, I was lucky.

Brandon Voss:
Both my mother and my father, you know, they instilled really good values in me as a kid. And and, you know, both of them worked really hard. I mean, the other thing about I think people think about, you know, being a hostage negotiator, it's a great job. How much time does that person actually spend in the home? You know. And so, you know, growing up, I had great parents. I didn't see them that much. You know, I was a very independent, you know, very independent child. But anyway, back to the story. You know, I was PlayStation came out and I really wanted it. And I wanted I went to my dad and, you know, I was, you know, hey, can I write the classic child question? Can I have or can I do? And of course, he shut me right down. Right? No, you can't have that. And like I said, they didn't they didn't give me a lot of material things. You know, at that point, I still had like a Nintendo, the original Nintendo, and I think I had a Super Nintendo. And so, you know, I didn't have the Sega, all the Sega stuff, the things that came out or I never got any of those. And he said, look, you know, if you want to if you want a PlayStation. You have to figure out how to cover it on your own. Or at least more than 50%.

Brandon Voss:
And if you can't reach any further than that, then I might help you out with the rest. And I got to admit, looking back on it, we talk about negotiation and business, right? Don't get too tied to a hope strategy, Right. Plans for the future. Like, oh, if you come and do this business with us, all this other stuff will open up for you down the line. That's something to be very careful of. And it's a constant pitch, right? And it's more so trying to tie you to hope of the future of things that can't be guaranteed and being careful about that. And in this case, right, if you can cover more than half, then I might help you out with the rest. I feel like he was tying me to this hope based strategy or future. But like I said, you know, we have a good relationship and I did trust them. So I can't think of the name of the franchise, but it was before GameStop. And for those of you that don't know what GameStop is, they're basically classified as a video game pawn shop and even on paper, legally with the government, they are they are actually a pawn shop because they buy games and they trade games and trade different equipment. So I can't remember again, I can't remember the name of the franchise before GameStop, but it was that one one back way back in the nineties, right? It seems like such a long time ago now.

Brandon Voss:
And so I went there, took my place, my, my Nintendo's and the games that I had and my controllers and it was my first experience with them. So I thought it was going to be worth a lot of money. And I had cash in hand and I don't remember exactly how much they gave me for my old game systems, but it wasn't very much. You know, those those stores don't they don't give you a lot of credit for those those old systems. Right. They want to sell them at a profit. So they don't they don't buy them for very much. And I got a little bit of money from that and I had a little bit of money that I had brought with me. And I think it was probably a little less than half. But my dad being being a good dad, you know, he saw that I went through the effort of of doing everything I could at that age to to obtain an item that I wanted for myself. And he helped me out with the rest. And I guess looking back on it, while it was a negotiation, very much so. Right. Can I know you cannot It was it was an opportunity for him to teach me a bit of a life lesson. Like I said, both my parents, I think, instill good values in me. And that's an addition that was a good life learning lesson.

Fei Wu:
Hi, guys. This is Fei Wu and you're listening to the Feisworld podcast. Today on the show, meet Brandon Voss, who is the son of Chris Voss, author of Never Split the Difference and a two time Feisworld podcast guest. Brandon is the director of operations for the Black Swan Group, founded by Chris. Together as father and son. They teach hostage negotiation skills to solve business negotiation problems. I love that story. And when I first spoke with your dad and we didn't really spend too much time talking about it and ask questions specific to parenting or his parenting skills or his kids. But, you know, part of me was thinking, oh, he better he better has a daughter. I can see him being so gentle on on her, you know, and trying to take care of her and was say yes to everything that she she has. And then, you know, I realized how proud your dad is of you. And your name has come up so much so naturally. And and I was really, in a way, surprised. I feel like there's definitely tenderness to whatever your name and your work comes up. And he's so proud of you. I want to maybe have you kind of talk to our listeners about when you've decided to join the Black Swan Group and what was that sort of process like.

Brandon Voss:
Sure, yeah. Yeah. No, that'd be great. And as a side note, I think it's probably better for my dad that he didn't have a daughter because I think he'd be he would be putty in her hands. I think it was easier for him to be very stern with his son. So as a side note. But yeah, as far as starting to work for him, I was I got into sales at a college. I did retail sales for Macy's, and I also did some business to business sales for Verizon. You know, in both places, you know, started at the bottom. Right. Did doing a lot of quote unquote grunt work, if you will. And around the time I was getting into college and going into sales, Chris was retiring from the FBI. And he you know, it's always kind of been a lifelong dream of his to to run his own business. And I think something you and I might have talked about last week a little bit, but we come from a bit of a long line of entrepreneurs. You know, his his dad, my grandfather was an entrepreneur, my grandmother's father, great, great grandpa. He was he ran a he ran his own business and ran an International Harvester franchise in the Midwest. And and so we come I think I think it's in our blood in a lot of ways. And even, you know, even myself as a teenager visiting D.C. to see my dad, I had a I had a yacht detailing business.

Brandon Voss:
And, you know, at 14 years old in Southwest D.C. and I had I had a crew of five. So I think I think it's in the blood. And I know when he got out of the bureau, he wanted to have his own business. So it comes out of the bureau. He goes right into Harvard. And while he's up there at Cambridge, he decides to put Black Swan on paper. You know, she's a lawyer and makes it official and and things like that. But he's not actually doing any business really, at the time because he's still going he's still going to Harvard and getting his his master's and things and they liked them. So much for you to read the book. They like Chris so much as a as a student that they brought him back as a teacher the following year. Right. Which is another thing that I think is really cool about his story. I don't know how often that happens and places of higher learning like Harvard, where you're so good as a student that they hire you as a teacher the following year. But you know, he had the experience to go through that. So again, you know, another year where he's not really doing any business because he's teaching at Harvard. It's taking up a lot of his time. But you know, it's a black swan is a business on paper. As far as my end of it, I started networking pretty much from within the first six months after he started the business.

Brandon Voss:
You know, I'm going in networking events, I'm shaking hands and handing out business cards. Nothing real serious. You know, I got a full time job in sales myself, so I'm doing stuff like this on Friday evenings and Saturdays, so. But nothing real complicated. Then in 2010, a contract basically just fell out of the sky. I mean, there's really no other way to put it. I'll keep the the the other companies we were involved with at the time kind of off to the side. But ultimately we were going to be working with a group from the Middle East to establish a hostage negotiation response team, which was something that they had never had before. And in this part of the world, when people take hostages, they just show up and start shooting at them and gunfights ensue and people get killed and they realize obviously we it's not the best way to do it this way. We can't show up and just have people die all the time. So let's let's try to start our own hostage negotiation team. And this I mean, it just fell into our laps. And while I wasn't full time with Chris, then, obviously he reaches out to me and he and we spoke and we've always had a good relationship. And he says, you know, I'm basically a one man show. You know, you didn't have any employees, right? He's still kind of teaching Harvard at this time.

Brandon Voss:
What can you do to help? Help me out here. And so that was back in 2010, and I came on full time with him. At that point, you know, I wasn't going to leave my dad out to dry. Right. He's got a big business endeavor and he needs a little hand. So I was going to be there and I started very much at a logistical capacity. You know, just handling a lot of back office stuff, you know, lining up trips. And the logistics for the contract in 2010 were pretty extensive. It was a contract that was going to last a whole year. The business that we did with this particular group was the only business that we did in 2010 when it actually do any other business, and because it kept us that busy. There was even a segment of that contract where we brought the group to the United States for about four months and we did a tour within the US to different law enforcement agencies so they could meet people, see how they do it in their part of the country, see the equipment that they use and things like that. And so that took a ball of 2010, and it was a really good learning experience for us. You know, we made some good money, we learn some good things. And then we also we fell on some some hard times. I mean, we learned some really tough lessons that year that, for all intents and purposes, also contribute to our negotiation doctrine today.

Brandon Voss:
You know, this whole idea of, yes, there's nothing without how and no deal is better than a bad deal. You know, that that comes from our experience in 2010 and different things that we went through. And after after 2010 was over, he started working as an adjunct at Georgetown University McDonough School of Business. And the MBA program brought me in as basically a kind of a T.A. and I slowly started to teach that class. And then when he went to USC, when he moved to the L.A. area and started teaching MBA program at USC, there actually several semesters when I taught as many classes as he did, we basically split it in half. And although I wasn't officially on the professor roster, I did a lot of pinch hitting for him. And those those were good experiences for me. Not only give me some teaching experience and in front of in front of a live audience, but you know, we learned a lot from our our college students, if you will. And it's really tough to call master's program people, college students, because they're generally working full time and they got kids anyway. But we learned a lot from them that and we actually use a lot of their examples today even when we teach. But, you know, starting big time with within 2010 and things have continued to grow and evolve along with my my own experience and expertise all along the way.

Fei Wu:
So first of all, for the record, as you're saying, you're started off in in logistics and then you did a lot of operations. I must say that those things are so important and incredibly time consuming and it's so tough to find the right person or people to do the job. And I know that intimately well through my own business. You have to find people with the right set of skills and people who are ready to deliver to ship to to be reliable. So there was a lot to unpack. I, I just went through as you're talking, went through a period of intense listening. So I heard that you said your previous experience in sales and marketing. So I think maybe that wasn't a coincidence that your dad kind of brought you in at the beginning of any business. Granted, your your dad was already known, you know, at Harvard, well networked, but still, for him to start a new business perhaps that people haven't heard of the Black Swan Group or don't really know how, Chris, in this case going to transition to doing something new or doing something he is used to. So I think tell us about like how you two or together or separately went about marketing the business. How did you articulate, describe it and really get new business in the first place?

Brandon Voss:
That's I think that's a great question. And and I and I will tell you that while while I'm probably a little bit better marketer than my father is and an upfront and the purposes I should be right I part of my college stint I spent in a in a business school and you know he was a government worker right. And one thing about working a government job is they don't teach you about how to survive once you're out of the government, right? You don't learn new world skills. Being a government employee, unfortunately, you learn how to do your job. And then when they're done with you, they kind of show you the door. And another thing, too, about being part of this team, I'm also confident to know that if my father didn't think I could do the job, he wouldn't have hired me, you know? Which is another thing, why it was much easier for me to take the job because I know it wasn't like I'm his son and he's offering it to me because I'm his son. You know, he's he's got a large Rolodex of people and there's a lot of people. I would love to work with a guy like him. And so the list was it wasn't exactly a short list. And so, you know, I think it's very cool that he that he turned to me and I think a lot of my previous experience did help as far as from a marketing perspective. One thing that really kicked us off early on was just, you know, phrases that really hit home for people.

Brandon Voss:
You know, those those kind of sexy phrases, if you will. And, you know, there is always leverage. Was a big one for us early on. I mean, we got a lot of mileage out of that phrase. There is always leverage because from a negotiation standpoint, though, people are constantly worried about their leverage. Right. What what dictates, you know, compromise or capitulation in a negotiation context? The person is going to compromise is probably the one that feels like they have the least amount of leverage for. There's something inside them that says I have more to lose than they do. Or You're at the table and you have that. You very much have the feeling of they don't need us as much as we need them. And then that's what forces people to compromise. Again, it's a human nature response. It's an emotional compromise. It's an emotional response. You're hoping you can get something else you're hoping is going to lead to something better. You know, it's very much emotional. So the ideas around leverage really helped us kick things off early on. And then very shortly after that, you know, along the lines of kind of a mission statement. But we use hostage negotiation techniques to solve business negotiation challenges. And one of the underwriting pieces of that is in hostage negotiation. There is no compromise. For those of you that have read the book, get on the phone with a hostage taker and he's got four hostages.

Brandon Voss:
You can't say, oh, I'll take two. You keep two, right? Everybody's happy and we all go home. Right? That is not actually an option in that case. So bringing those same the same communication techniques where you're constantly building rapport and building trust, even with a hostage taker. Yes. Or a barricaded suspect. And then how that leads you to a place where you don't have to compromise your position to make a deal. And what I love and both Derrick Gaunt, who's another expert instructor of ours, he's a former crisis negotiator with Alexandria PD's integral part of the team these days. One thing that he loves to say is that he was in sales for 27 years with the police department, and what he sold people was jail time. And he had buyers every day of the week. And a lot of that, again, is, you know, you mention a relationship side of things earlier. That's a big component of that. So from a from a marketing side, you know, getting people to understand that our our approach, the negotiation process was different than they'd probably ever heard of before. And of course, a lot of that is because it's rooted in hostage negotiation in this world of of compromise not being an option. And then, of course, you know, there's an emotional approach, emotional intelligence approach that we take to negotiation and then using key emotional words that are tied to negotiation and leverage is one of.

Fei Wu:
Hi there, It's me again. I want to thank you very much for listening to this episode, and I hope you were able to learn a few things. If you drill what you heard, it will be hugely helpful if you could subscribe to the Feisworld podcast. It literally takes seconds if you're on your mobile phone, just search for Feisworld Podcast in the podcast app on iPhone or an Android app such as Podcast Addict and click subscribe. All new episodes will be delivered to you automatically. Thanks so much for your support.

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Part 2

(Part 2). Brandon Voss Learning with an FBI Hostage Negotiation Expert.m4a: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

(Part 2). Brandon Voss Learning with an FBI Hostage Negotiation Expert.m4a: this m4a audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Fei Wu:
Hey. Hello. How are you? This is a show for everyone else. Instead of going after Top 1% of the world. We dedicate this podcast to celebrate the lives of the unsung heroes and self-made artists. Hi, guys. This is Fei Wu and you're listening to the Feisworld podcast. Today on the show, meet Brandon Voss, who is the son of Chris Voss, author of Never Split the Difference and a two time Feisworld podcast guest. Brandon is the director of operations for the Black Swan Group, founded by Chris. Together as father and son. They teach hostage negotiation skills to solve business negotiation problems. I love the word leverage. I tell people and I talk about that there's always more options than you think. So I think it really opens up a lot of opportunity. And it's true. This is not bluff. I think we oftentimes give up. We're given before we explore all the opportunities.

Brandon Voss:
I couldn't agree with you more in negotiation. I mean, our phrase, which is along the same lines, is don't be so sure of what you want that you wouldn't accept something better. And a lot of that is when when people get you get so focused on what your own data and what your own justifications are that it inhibits your ability to explore what else is going on here. And I think so. I think that's great. I love I love the more options than you think. And yeah, I love that. I love that idea.

Fei Wu:
And one of the reason, Brandon, why I always have to think that way was because growing up, you know, like you, I grew up to, like, very successful parents and I feel like, oh, it's a little overshadowed by them. Maybe we should talk about that, too. But, you know, coming to this country at the age of 17 with $3,000 in my pocket and not knowing with no skills or the right age to make more money, I was pretty freaked out and deep inside and I had to bury that. So wherever I went, I always had to think, Oh, there's definitely more options, right? From smaller decisions to much, much bigger ones, whether to apply to college, finding a job. I'm thinking, especially when I feel I'm stuck, that I always think I haven't fully explored the options. So, you know, that's sort of my point of view on a lot of things and kind of reminder to myself, so to speak. So thank thanks for that.

Brandon Voss:
Of course. Of course. And also I always enjoy meeting people that are either not originally from the United States or they're like first generation. Their parents came over here and when they were very young or something along those lines, because those type of people are built differently than the ones that have the privilege of being born in this country. There's a there's a perspective on the way that you look at life and what it takes to succeed and drive that I feel like as as natural born Americans, we don't we we kind of have to learn that if we learn it at all, there's another a good client of ours that's you know, his his father ran a small business in in South America and spent a lot of time on the road driving goods from from one place to another. And, you know, they struggled and he fought his way up. And, you know, now he works for a giant airline company that is still in business. You know, not one of the ones that got bought up or disappeared and has been with that airline company since they had one plane. And it's just it's interesting to talk to him and get his perspective on how he looks at things. So the way you see things and what you've been through and where you've gotten yourself to today, you know, it would just be fun to hear.

Fei Wu:
About and what you just said. Right. And remind me about your client's story. He's been there since plane number one. I can even see the label on it. Like, this is it. This is all we got, right? I feel like you and your dad lived through something very similar, and now, as I'm talking about, it makes more sense because I know when I hear your dad speak about you, I know it's so there's something he's so appreciative and he's so proud and not just because he's a dad, but there's something that you guys really live through together. And I think at the beginning in 2010 11, seeking out the first few clients making mistakes that you have to make, not because you're not a professional, because you were already. Imagine if you're just a business partner, imagine how many fallouts people have had during difficult times. I can name dozens, literally among my own friends and connections. I know people are no longer friends. They stop speaking to each other or it didn't work. It took years to recover. But yet you stuck around. So I. I definitely want to hear maybe one story or something that you recall from that period of time.

Brandon Voss:
Yeah, that's that's a that's a great point I think. And it might not be one specific story as opposed to like a mix of, of different events. But I agree with you. I think unfortunately there is a lot of fallout, especially when, you know, when you hit hard times and having to really, you know, as they say, right, pick yourself up by your own bootstraps and really and grind through it in a lot of ways. I think my father and I are very lucky. We're very we're blessed in a lot of ways to have the relationship that we have because we've always been close. And I think there's been different times where we've been at each other's throats over different things, you know, just business decision or the way that we're handling a client or the way that we're executing certain things, which, you know, as you look back on it, seem like small problems. Like why would you why would you risk hurting your relationship over that? But at those times, I think our foundational relationship is father and son is what kept us together. And in a lot of ways, you know, because I think in a lot of ways we also both realized we needed each other. And I think if we weren't if we weren't family, you know, if we didn't have the relationship that we had, there probably are a few different times that that may have broken us. And what kept us together was that was that family relationship.

Brandon Voss:
And I'm trying to think of, you know, it's funny, even in negotiation context, we talk about, you know, you don't remember things, how they happened. You remember things, how they made you feel. Which is why when people recall conversations, they have trouble coming up with all the exact phrases that were said back and forth. But they can they can explain in great detail how they felt in the moment and what they were getting from the other person that made them feel that way. And so, you know, keeping that in mind, I can't think of anything specific, but I definitely remember certain points where my father and I, we had we had to separate ourselves from each other and just take time to breathe because, you know, the arguments at times would get heated enough. And, you know, one thing I can't remember, it wasn't necessarily a breaking point, but I felt like, you know, I didn't give him the right amount of warning and I feel like I could have done more. And we were both frustrated in the moment, and it ended up not helping either one of us. And it was in regards to the contract in 2010. A lot of people from the Middle East that came for this program were also former military, and several of them were high ranking military and had been around for a long time. And when we got into this whole how do we negotiate? How do we communicate better? Your rank in the military did not dictate your ability to negotiate with a hostage taker.

Brandon Voss:
And I think that's one of the things that they had trouble making a connection to. And so when we got ready to assign team leaders. For hostage negotiation with this group. Many of the team leaders were not the highest ranking people in the room. And so back then, since I handled a lot of logistics, I spent more one on one time with the group friend in Middle East, right? Like we if they wanted to go out, they'd take me with them and, you know, and treat us well and those things. And when they want to sit down and talk, they'd always, they'd pull a person like me aside to have that conversation. And so I had a really good insight into how they personally felt about the program, as opposed to having an instructor's insight into like, what information do we want them to have? And so I sat. I sat my father down and I tried to explain to him we were getting ready to start. I think the segment of this training was called the Leadership School. And just based on the name. If you're a high ranking officer in the military and there's a leadership school, you think that you should probably be a part of it, especially if you've got a track record for being a good leader.

Brandon Voss:
Again, it doesn't make you a great negotiator. And so I kind of saw this train coming at us. We're getting ready to start the leadership school. We're going to admit several people that are not the highest ranking people in the room, and there's going to be an uproar. They're going to they're going to kick and scream and they're going to have real problems with this. And I pulled my father aside to try to explain to him that the freight train was coming. You know, it's one of those things he was distracted. He's thinking about a lot of other things. And I'm trying to tell him as opposed to negotiate with him. Right. I think Ronald Reagan was the president that said, if you're explaining your losing. And that's that's a concept that we've also brought to negotiation. So I sat him down and I tried to explain to my father what the problem was and that he didn't see it and he needed to listen to what his son had to say. And it didn't go over very well. You know, it's not that we got into a huge fight, but we didn't actually accomplish anything. And of course, 24 hours later when we started the leadership school and we split the group up, there was an uproar. You know, there was even a bit of a like a protest where people didn't want to go to class because they didn't think that they that they were that they were put in the proper place.

Brandon Voss:
And that was a big enough deal. Internally that I mean, it put a real dent in our relationship with our client at that point. And I know that you know that it all comes down to my father, right? He's he's the guy that started the company. He's running all the training while we have several people on staff. You know, he's the scapegoat. He's where everything comes back down to. You know, he didn't place everybody. At the end of the day, he's going to be the scapegoat because he's the one who's ultimately responsible. And I know that was really tough on them, both from the participant group and from the client that we were trying to serve. And I felt like I could I should have done more. Like, you know, I've been in a situation where, like, I could have, would have, should have. Right. I feel like I should have did a better job helping my father understand and and things like that. And that was really tough on us. But again, it was another great learning experience. I think looking back on it, you know, I almost don't even know if I would change it if I could, just because we learn so much of the process. And that probably goes with even even the heated arguments we've had. You know, I don't know if I'd necessarily change them because we've learned so much from all of that.

Fei Wu:
What's really interesting about what you said, and I, I agree that it's one is probably unavoidable. And two, and it's really necessary to have that level of friction and the process to realize how even just among you to between you to how you could work better together because you you had never really worked in that capacity before. I think your relationship changed in a way drastically from father and son to partners. And and even those roles could change even as partners. And and during these negotiations and kind of client relationships that you continue to shift. And I say that because I have never really officially worked with my mom. My mom is in a kind of a similar position like your father, who's really let me to a lot of opportunities. And, you know, and recently we found ourselves in this similar situation. And and then I realized how much more emotional she gets when she and I together are negotiating, you know, with a business, with a third party, with a business partner, because there are things that I witnessed that she would struggle. She realizes what she's struggling and especially when she feels as, if not necessary. People are attacking me, but if people are disagreeing with me or questioning some of the things decisions I made makes her feel really worked up in that situation. So there are so many dynamics that now I'm learning and dealing with working with my mom alongside that I never realized before. I was like, Oh, none of this was part of the calculation. I didn't expect both of us to kind of spin out of control, but it's really good to have that experience at the beginning.

Brandon Voss:
Yeah, yeah, I'd agree with that. And to quote Todd Camp and Todd is gym camp son. Jim is is author of the book Start With No, which is a book that we recommend on a regular basis in addition to ours. And there's a lot of great insights in it. So for those of you listening, start with know by Jim Camp is also a great read, but his son Todd now runs their business and it's, you know, the negotiation, the negotiation Institute. And they do a lot of online training. And one way that he describes negotiation is he he describes it as a human performance event. And I've always thought that that was a great way to look at it, especially because, as you mentioned, the emotions that are involved. And when you come when it comes to family, family businesses are just family in general. Family communication. You know your family. So for all intents and purposes, the emotions are much more intense than they would be with some. Would Joe blow off the street? You know, their family, they actually mean something to you. And, you know, it's not always flowers and roses as far as what they mean to you, right, when it comes to family. So you're much more emotionally charged when you're negotiating or communicating with family just because of the nature of your relationship with one another. The people that really get good with our skills that we teach in the book and then we teach with with people one on one and in small groups, they always say when when they feel they're perfectly fluent, they still always say the hardest part of negotiating is controlling my own emotions in the moment.

Fei Wu:
Hi, guys. This is Fei Wu and you're listening to the Feisworld podcast. Today on the show, meet Brandon Voss, who is the son of Chris Voss, author of Never Split the Difference and a two time Feisworld podcast guest. Brandon is the director of operations for the Black Swan Group, founded by Chris. Together as father and son. They teach hostage negotiation skills to solve business negotiation problems.

Brandon Voss:
So, you know, the takeaway from that, even if you feel as though you're an expert in that field. The emotionally charged aspects of the communication are still the most difficult to deal with, and then that's exacerbated even more so when your family and it comes down to your ability to perform with other human beings in this very you have skin in the game that are our futures very closely tied to the agreement that we come to and how how important that aspect is. And again, the dealing with the emotions, which is why we say emotional intelligence is so important and and even online right. Or different research that you can do. Being emotionally intelligent is also very closely tied to success. And that's success in business. That's success in your personal life and also in negotiation.

Fei Wu:
Absolutely. And then I'm glad you brought up another example of sort of a father and son partnership. Sometimes I find myself or find people speaking to family business in a kind of an extreme case, like don't do it, don't go down that path. And granted, many people would fail. Like, you know what we just described, the emotionally charged. I know precisely what you mean by that. Right. And I think we've all been there. And what I find also is that, you know, the idea of being overshadowed by our parents, my mom in this case, 37 years of the Forbidden City, world renowned artist. Right. She had a painting of the MFA in Boston back in the eighties and she's 66 and still getting hired. Like people are looking to hire her to do work. I'm so proud. I'm so happy for her. But I wonder how you balance that. What is that message or sort of ways that could help people overcome that? Because you can do great things together or how to look at it differently, perhaps.

Brandon Voss:
Yes, that's a really good question. And and and I may get this phrase wrong, but I think I think it's the phrase goes, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And so, yeah, and a lot of ways, you know, my my father's, you know, his resume and the history of what he's done and what he's accomplished overshadows overshadows me. And but there's two really good things about that. Number one, you've got to give credit where credit is due, Right? I wasn't flying all over the world saving people's lives. Right. I wasn't I wasn't briefing the presidents at the time for the United States on what my activities were like. He was doing all those cool things. And what was great about that from a business perspective, you know, that's the marketable piece that has helped get us to where we are today. You know, like being able to make. Bring that sexiness, if you will, to the world and have people look at it and say, you know what, Maybe there's something that they can they have that I can learn to. And I'll tell you, there's a lot of former hostage negotiators. Right. There's a there's Chris is not the only one. But it's probably the only if you know of any at all. He's probably the only one you can name. And there's there's a lot of hostage negotiators that have written books. You know, just you can even Google hostage negotiators in books and you'll find plenty. And there's plenty that have gone into business, But we have no idea who they are.

Brandon Voss:
And so that sexy piece of it and his resume, I mean, is a platform for what is kind of springboard it as to where we are now. And so it's not like I can necessarily be mad at that, even though I probably when I was younger, I guess I guess maybe it bothered me right as a kid he was he was the most popular popular parent on career day when he could make it, which was always a cool thing. So I guess in a lot of ways. I guess I've always just thought it was really cool. So for me personally, it hasn't it hasn't been a huge issue to deal with. And I think I think a lot of that too, is, you know, he also hasn't been overbearing with it. You know, as you said. Right. He he's proud of his son. And and we do have a good relationship. And so I think a lot of that plays in, you know, I guess in some ways there are there are some difficulties to that as well. But. So, yeah, I think I think it's just I think it's learning how to balance it and it's not an easy thing. I mean, the other part of this is it's one of those things that it always sounds easy. It's easier said than done. But you don't really appreciate it unless you're going through it. And then on top of that, it's also it's not an easy endeavor at all times, Right?

Fei Wu:
Oh, I love how you summarize this and kind of gives me new insights to when we're living in that bubble, because every situation, every parent child relationship is unique. You sort of see as hard as you can living in your own experiences. But, you know, talking to talking to you, talking to my friends who have lived through that and in a way that you've had a very successful partnership, and I'm not pressuring you to say this is this should be what you do for the rest of your life. But clearly it's at the moment is something you enjoy very much. The one one area I know that I asked some really difficult questions and I'm so thankful that you are willing to explore in those areas because I think people really need to know. And but now there's some, I think, way more lighthearted questions. A couple of them I want to explore is, So you said that you and your dad oftentimes walk into a room. People didn't realize you're related. And instead of taking it personally, I'm get angry at it. But you actually had some fun with it. So could you tell us a bit about that?

Brandon Voss:
Sure. Sure. Yeah. That's that is always that is always a fun one. And yeah, my father and I, we do not look alike at all, especially at first glance. I mean, a standing joke. Even when he and I teach go on site and teach for clients is we always say, Hey, you know, I can tell by the look on your face, you're wondering if Chris and I are actually father and son. And in fact, we are. And I know it's easy to tell because we look so much alike and like that. I probably I don't know how much mileage I've gotten out of that, but that always gets a really good laugh because when they see us up front, they're always trying to figure out who we are and what we're doing there, especially when because we look so different and they understood a father son team was coming. So, you know, yeah, we walk into a room. Yeah, we definitely from a business context, we probably don't have quite as much fun with it because, you know, we never we're never quite sure how people are going to react, but we definitely have a lot more fun with it out in public. And we were one story as we were out in in Manhattan. We both love New York City. That's probably if we could pick one favorite city on a whole planet, it would probably be New York for both of us. You know, I grew up in in the New Jersey area.

Brandon Voss:
I grew up in Newark, and and Chris spent 14 years in Manhattan with the FBI. So a lot of familiarity with town. And we're down near the new Trade Center. And what are we doing? We're down to financial district meeting, meeting with someone. And we got done with our meeting and we're on our way out and we're standing on a corner and we're both hailing for a cab. We're both standing there with our arm out. And I don't I don't see him. He's next to me. But I wasn't really paying attention to him. And he thinks to himself like, I'm not going to stand here and hold my arm up for a cab. Right. Like, I'm with my son. He's he's almost twice my size. You know, if he's got his arm up, I'll let him hail the cab. I'm not going to stand here in my arm in the air. And and sure enough, a cab pulls up. And if you know anything about New York City, it is not uncommon for people to steal cabs from one another or get into an argument over a cab. Right. Whose cab it is? So this cab pulls up. It's probably I think it's about 930 at night. And he jumps in one side of the cab and I walk around and jump in the other side. And he figures, there's no way that this cab thinks that we're together. So as soon as I get in the cab, he looks at me and he goes, Hey, pal, this is my cab.

Brandon Voss:
My ain't Sharon. And I look at him and I say, Shut your mouth, old man. You know, you can sit here and you can share a cab. And the driver's head almost snapped off his neck when he when he turned his head around to look at us in the back of his cab. I mean, his I thought his neck was going to snap because he turned around so fast. And he's got to be thinking, you know, because neither one of us are small. I'm bigger than he is, but he's still you know, he's six one, £195. You know, he's not a small person. And he's got to be thinking like, if these guys get into a boxing match in my back seat, like what? I don't know what I'm going to do. And the look on his face, I mean, it was just a fear and just confusion when he turned around and looked at us. And then, of course, we pause for a second and we looked at him, we looked at each other, and then we just started laughing. And he just, you know, he was like, Oh, there you go. Oh, thank God. These guys, they're okay. I was so worried about like, I didn't know if he was going to get out of the cab and run off or What are you going to do next?

Fei Wu:
Oh, man, would be awesome if he did.

Brandon Voss:
Well, yeah, that'd be a great ending to the story. Then the cabbie got out of the cab and he took off The.

Fei Wu:
Funny part of the story. Oh, man. Somebody. Somebody that just started driving. I could have. I mean, how tall are you, Brandon?

Brandon Voss:
I'm not. I'm not that tall. I'm wide. So I think sometimes I look taller, but I'm six two and change, so I'm only about an inch, inch and a half taller than my dad.

Fei Wu:
Gotcha, man. So I love that The little cute snippet that you gave out of you. My last question, I promise of how your parents met and how your dad you mentioned as a rookie. I love that it was a cute tell us.

Brandon Voss:
Yeah. No, I think I think I think it's a cool story too. So my my dad grew up he's he's a midwestern guy. And as it turns out, my my mother is a midwestern gal. They just come from from different states that that aren't that far apart. So my father always wanted to be a cop. You know, he read a book when he was a kid, and I can't think of the name of the book, but is these two cops? And what they did was awesome. And that's when he decided he wanted to be a police officer. So when he got out of college, he he went to Kansas City, Missouri, KCMO, and became a police officer. And that's what he wanted to do, right, is this dream job. And as it turns out, there was a dispatch. But he was he was quite attracted to who turned out to be my mom. So interesting. Small. My mother's originally from Kansas City, Missouri. That's where she grew up. And and when she got to working age, she decided to get a job as a dispatcher for the Kansas City Police Department. And she met this. This weird rookie cop that she that she happened to fall in love with. And, you know, I'm lucky enough to be the result of that. But yeah, I think it's just a cool thing. I almost wish I had pictures that I could show of my dad's first day on the job as a as a Kansas City Police Department officer, because they they are quite amusing. He's he's very proud of himself in those photos. Yeah. Just. Yeah, Yeah. She was a dispatch. She used to relay messages to them through the radio and they got familiar with one another and decided to get married. Moved to Jersey.

Fei Wu:
Well, that's awesome. I just, I, I wish we had recordings of those messages.

Brandon Voss:
Yeah. Yeah, me too.

Fei Wu:
I think love stories from the old days to me, are way more interesting than the the ones that we're living through now, to be honest.

Brandon Voss:
You know, I think I'd agree with you there. I think in a lot of ways it's I hate to use the word purity. Yeah. I don't know. I think it's interesting. We have these days, we have much more technology to keep us in communication with one another and be able to relate to one another. But back in those days and we didn't have that technology, I feel like people were almost related to each other better. And yeah, it was, you know, this was back. Let's see. So I'm I was born 85 and so they got they got married, I think 82. So that means they met like late seventies. And so, yeah, they, you know, they even have cell phones then. And even payphones were hard to find in that part of the world. Right. You know, like a payphone on every corner, like in Manhattan at that time. But yeah, it's just I think I think it is a cool story. It's it's fun to imagine the two of them getting to know each other through, you know, in a police band and just simple business, right? Like there's a call at such and so intersection and then simply responding to that and then turning it into having conversations around a precinct and then that turn it into, you know, Hey, can I take you out on a date type of deal and just the progression of how they came together. It's cool to think about.

Fei Wu:
Mhm. Exactly. I feel like a lot of the stores are not quite the way we thought it would be. And even from my parents it was like a very unlikely rescue story as well. So you think sometime you think about it was like oh I almost didn't happen like in a way like what is, you know, your dad decides to work elsewhere. I mean it's Yeah. Thank you so much, Bryant. I really look forward to meeting you in person. And please let me know that be so much fun.

Brandon Voss:
Yes. Yes. I look forward to getting getting to shake your hand as well. And thanks for the time.

Fei Wu:
Yeah, you're very welcome. I'll talk to you soon, then.

Brandon Voss:
All right. Bye bye.

Fei Wu:
Hi there, It's me again. I want to thank you very much for listening to this episode, and I hope you were able to learn a few things. If you drill what you heard, it will be hugely helpful if you could subscribe to the Feisworld podcast. It literally takes seconds if you're on your mobile phone, just search for Feisworld Podcast in the podcast app on iPhone or an Android app such as Podcast Addict and click subscribe. All new episodes will be delivered to you automatically. Thanks so much for your support.

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PodIntelligence is an AI-driven, plus human-supported service to help podcasters, webinar hosts and filmmakers create high quality micro-content that drives macro impact. PodIntelligence turns any number of long-form audio and video into word clouds, keyword and topic driven MP3 and MP4 clips that can be easily analyzed and shared on multiple platforms. Learn more: https://www.podintelligence.com/

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