Josh Jackson: What You Don’t See on Paper Is the Best Part About Josh (#263)
Our Guest Today: Josh Jackson
Josh Jackson graduated from Emory Law. He was recognized by the Emory Law faculty as an Honor Graduate.Joshserved as one of Professor Jennifer Romig’s research assistants, assessing legal information and drafting portions of her book’s extended case study.Joshis now a Washington D.C.-based consultant and serves as the Executive Director of The AI Association which is a trade organization that educates lawmakers on artificial intelligence and automation. He is also Vice President of the Emory DC Politics & Policy Network in Washington D.C.
Josh also stepped into legal education himself.Joshteaches Legal and Regulatory Environment of Business for undergraduate students and Law and the Governance of Artificial Intelligence for Master of Science in Business Innovation at Carthage College in Kenosha, Wisconsin.
Josh continues to be active in underrepresented communities as he has helped with students in Flint, Michigan, Long Island, New York, and Mainland, China. What you don’t see on paper is the best part aboutJosh. He helps others to dig deeper into their learning and apply their learning to the future of their community.
Watch Our Interview
Josh Jackson What you don’t see on paper is the best part about Josh.m4a – powered by Happy Scribe
Feisworld podcast helps independent creators live their creative and financial freedom. I’m your host, Fei Wu, and I’ll be taking you through a series of interviews with creators from around the world who are living life on their own terms. Each episode is packed with tactics, nuggets you can implement origin stories to make listening productive and enjoyable. We’re not only focused on the more aspirational stories, but relatable ones as well. We also have none interview based miniseries releasing throughout the year to help Deep dove into topics such as freelancing, marketing, even indie filmmaking that would benefit creators like you.
Show notes, lengths and ways to connect with the guests are available on Feisworld.com. Now onto the show. Hello there, this is Fei Wu from Feisworld Media and Feisworld podcast. Well, if you haven’t checked us out on YouTube, definitely hit us up there. And my YouTube channel is relatively new as of October twenty nineteen, even though I had been on YouTube for quite a bit as mostly a content consumer, I never thought I would be showing my face or interviewing my guests via video from time posted there.
So if you are arriving here on Feisworld for the first time, well, I got some good news for you because if you enjoy audio content, we’re here. You know, you’re probably listening to anchor or iTunes or wherever you are, Spotify, I guess. But we’re also going live with these episodes and conversations much earlier than it actually hits our podcast channel. So before we edit things together, ballons or audio, I go live with all my guests, pretty much without exceptions these days, all my social media channels.
So I welcome you to check us out there to get in touch with these events and be notified before we go live. Definitely check out Feisworld.com for such events. So with that said, if you’re new or you have been with us for a little while, we’re changing of the format because I love to be able to share a little bit about me, about my life, what I’ve been up to before I go ahead and introduce my guests well by the title, you know that today’s guest is Josh Jackson, who I met through Seth Godin’s Alt-MBA.
But, you know, it occurred to me that I want to review and just be so honest, completely honest with you guys about this entrepreneurial journey, because many of our listeners are equally balance between men and women. And there is a pretty big age range. And as you know, this is a bit of a variety show, even though focusing on creative entrepreneurship. But we interview a lot of people through all walks of life, including in previous episodes that you’ve heard from a palliative care doctor, B.J. Miller, who started his own company, Mettle Health.
So I am just so intrigued by this whole creative journey. I really do believe that everybody is deep down innately very creative. Yes, that includes you. And I don’t care whether you think you are just a lawyer. You are purely logical and there’s not a one creative bone inside of you. I don’t think any of that is true. So with that said, you know, once you begin to explore that creative energy and your inner power and your ability to influence other people, whether it’s to help other people make money or, you know, making other people feel good, I think that is in a way, a very interesting superpower that we have.
And it it’s hard to elevate that sometimes. And I found that when I became a full time entrepreneur in January 2016, I was 32 at the time. And after spending nine years in corporate America in any corporation. So you kind of lose touch with yourself. Once I started building my own business, I realized that it was definitely in some ways easier, in some ways harder. The harder part for me wasn’t about purely just making money because I feel like I sort of have that covered.
My income is sometimes inconsistent, but I can definitely, you know, pay the bills live comfortably. It is about. Yeah, you know, scaling your income is another conversation. Some people say I’m at two hundred fifty thousand dollars. I want to hit half a million next year. Well, you got to internalize on really make some changes if that’s the case. But comfort, you know, we don’t really need that much money to be comfortable for me and for a lot of people I know in my mastermind group.
And such is our ability to focus on the things that we know. It’s going to be productive. It’s going to yield to the highest and most valuable results, going to reach the most amount of people. Well, here’s the catch. You don’t always know that sometimes. Often than not, you feel guilty or ashamed of. Wow. I really don’t know what they’re saying with the things going, am I doing the right thing? Am I making the right decision?
Am I supporting making my family and friends proud? My recommendation, as you can always put that type of pressure on yourself because that will paralyze you and not help you move forward. And I’m looking at a white board behind me right now, which you can see. I realize that since really since last year. Twenty nineteen through this pandemic, I learned a lot about myself and even more about my business and my areas of focus have shifted. No one, as I mentioned earlier, I didn’t realize YouTube could be such a successful channel.
I have my producer German to thank for and who supported me all the way through. You know, we brainstorm new ideas every three weeks. Sometimes they don’t hit the. Margaret, don’t hit the YouTube algorithm, but it shows the level of support. You know, it’s really helping me push through everything and see the results. And I never thought it was possible. And other areas of my life, to be honest, like podcasting was something that I struggled with for a while.
You know, it’s not something where I personally put all my money or my hope into. I just love running a variety show. I love the fact that I I can learn from anyone and everyone. And it made the show definitely more challenging to monetize. But Newman, my producer Hermansson, why not embrace it? So I start doing that and I, I was you know, I’ve been very not just more intentional but more niche and more focused on algorithms and the people, the exact people I’m targeting is speaking to on YouTube, whereas podcasting, just like this format, really helped me connect with a a wider variety of folks.
And I cannot tell you just the feeling and the thinking about you listening to this through your headphones or you’re running your errands or you’re driving in the car, you’re cleaning the house and you’re listening to me talking to you about all of this. I want to come clean every single week, as you were listening to this, to talk about what it’s really like to be a creative entrepreneur and why it’s worth it. So I can feel every ounce of my body feeling so liberated by creative entrepreneurship.
And sometimes, you know, we’re just human being. I forget all the time, like, I could have been having a great day doing getting so much done, doing the exact type of projects I want, working with my favorite clients. And yet sometimes you don’t if you don’t reflect, you don’t even think about it. So, you know, I highly recommend that, you know, if you could take a moment to reflect or if you set your calendar for a week to reflect on the things that you really enjoy at the end of the day, the things that you’re grateful for and get into a pattern of who you are and what makes you tick.
That is some good journaling that’s going to help you make decisions more wisely, more quickly. Even so, what I said well, please welcome Josh Jackson to the FDA’s World podcast. What is this episode about? I titled this to be what you don’t see on paper is the best part about Josh Jackson. I don’t know why I saw this line from his LinkedIn profile. I really liked it. Josh came from a very different background compared to not just me, but people who are very close to me.
He graduated from Emory Law. I don’t know a lot of lawyers or we can’t really say that I’m close to a lot of them. He was recognized by the Emory law faculty as an honor graduate, and he also served as one of Professor Jennifer Rovics research assistants, assessing legal information and drafting portions of her book Extended Case Study. And he’s now living in Washington, D.C. and he speaks to artificial intelligence, among many other things. Honestly, I’m not really an expert in.
So even though I was trying to study more before I interviewed him, I don’t think how much of that I was really going to pick up. So with that said, I think it just in general a great idea to catch up with people who you studied with you as part of Seth Consult MBA. I was really curious what Josh has been up to after meeting him in person in twenty seventeen in New York. So absolutely love this format and love the idea to connect with people who are not exactly like me as well.
So you’ll notice that Josh Josh is a very peaceful way of speaking, which I later on find, you know, found out for the first time that he actually taught English in China. He has a lot of empathy in a speech. He is used to talking to people who are immigrants, people whose language is not first, language is not English. So it’s just wonderful to discover someone all around. I included Link so you can learn more about Josh and his work.
But without further ado, please welcome Josh Jackson to the First World Livestream and podcast. Thank you so much for you to be here. I love you and I’ll see you at the end of the show.
And it says, we are now live just like that, we are live. Yeah, YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, my personal page, my regular company page and hi everyone. It’s Fei. It is Friday at 1:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. I’ve been doing that is going live with my friends, my colleagues, my mentors, people I absolutely love and adore, my network for the past few months. And I am totally addicted. So today I invite Josh Jackson to join me.
And and by the way, Josh, you know, we talked about this before. Josh is OK for you.
So, yeah. So Josh and I met in actually Hastings on Hudson during one of Saskatoons live event with, you know, three hundred other people. I remember Josh be on stage. I remember your face kind of you’re wearing a very serious suit and all that, like very well put together. And so I had a lot of assumptions. And then seeing you again during a belief because stuff Jones releasing a new book. So I saw you in that group reach out to you and we’re connecting.
Josh, thanks. I’m glad. I’m glad to be here. So.
Yeah, I’m really glad to have you here, and if I remember, you’re currently based in D.C., right?
Correct. Washington, D.C. as a great city, even though it’s it’s different now. The pandemic is around, but it’s still thriving. It’s still strong. And it’s it’s at the center of everything.
So why do you feel like it’s at the center of everything? Like what? What prompted you to move from New York? Right.
Yeah. So this is this this kind of stems back to at the beginning. And I mean, Seth has talked about this before. Many other people talked about this as well, is what you’re reading. Oh, why are you reading what you’re reading? Right. And sometimes it’s you’re reading things that hopefully are going to change you. Right. And at the same time, I think reading items that no one else is reading helps give you more perspective.
So if let’s talk, I guess we can talk about what I’m what I’m doing now is. I am helping write legislation around artificial intelligence and the automation industry and my understanding, as I’ve been reading way back when pre all NBA was how who’s writing legislation and what does it look like? So I’m not going to talk about social justice or religion or anything, but we’ll stick to kind of the overarching themes here, but. In looking at writing legislation, there are some key aspects to being a good legislative writer, and one would be having kind of an analytical mind, one having a sort of legal and legal like the traditional legal kind of destructive sort of instructing writings and others like an artist, like being creative.
And so. That I had to get there right on how do I fit and learned these three things and and originally I was a scientist, so I was thinking about it from an analytical mindset, and now I needed to fill in these other pieces.
Right. And you went to law school. I mean, you definitely had some very proper training to understand the world that I have no access. I mean, you know, I wouldn’t say I don’t have any access to, but yet I admittedly speaking, I know very little about I don’t even think I have a lot of friends living in D.C. for that reason. So you’re like opening up this, I don’t know, Pandora’s box or otherwise to me on how things actually work over there.
Yeah, well, I mean, I think that’s I did want to talk about this, too, because I hear this a lot where people say I don’t have access to the law or I don’t have access to understanding. And I think there is some cryptic ness to these power structures. And there’s this cryptic ness to the legal world where we’re kind of afraid, like the notion of lawyers or anyone that understands the law is that they’re going to be super judgmental, but they’re also going to be it’s almost like the equivalent of a psychologist.
Sometimes when you’re talking to a psychologist and you’re like, OK, you’re totally analyzing me right now and all my flaws. And I think sometimes you sit with a lawyer, you’re like, OK, are they how are they analyzing what I’m talking about or what I’ve written? Did I just break the law? And now they’re they’re going to judge me for. Right, exactly. So I think there’s a lot going on there. And when I was studying with one of my professors at Emory, she decided to write a book around helping the layperson understand and work with the law and lawyers, because there’s a lot of times where.
It’s on the onus of you as an individual to kind of be. To understand what is happening in the legal world, right, and seeking help and saying I need a lawyer or I need someone with more training, and sometimes you just don’t know where to go. Right. As individuals, I just noticed, like for the first time, not that this is the first time for us to chat, that there’s so much empathy in the way that you communicate.
Because I my second question after this would be where you’re from originally, because, look, I’m based of people who don’t know this. I’m based in Boston and I am a lot of my friends are Jewish. A lot of my friends are from New York and everybody talks super fast. In fact, a couple of seconds ago, one of my guests, Todd Churches, was so honest. He said, I’ve been staring at this little turtle my wife gave me and said, slow down when you get interviewed.
And yet I feel like you’re in Georgia. You’re very you’re very you like to articulate and you’re very chill, like very relaxed. And yet you work in D.C. and you study law like, well, you know, there’s some this kind of a disconnect.
I mean, that is OK. So take my my family was very much they were contractors with the military. So this goes back to like so my dad’s a rocket scientist. So that’s something that no way is totally rocket scientist. And we make fun of them a lot of times because he couldn’t do things around the house like simple tasks. Right. Like that’s the job where now I’m taller than he is. So there’s some of that aspect of being like, hey, can you just do this because I can’t reach and it’d be so much easier for you to reach.
But then there’s that aspect of like there’s only so much in my mind, like I’m thinking about that some tasks just don’t work. So there’s actually a story that I want to tell about that, but I’ll come back. So we were contracted, contracted by the military. So we moved around a lot in terms of where I lived.
We’re born, by the way, I, I yeah.
So I was only there for a little bit. I was born in Michigan. OK, so I was I was born in Michigan, but my family is from there, like the Virginia area near Air Force Base, the, the whole like in the military but not in the military. So I live in Virginia and then moved to Illinois when I was in high school and then went to school in Arkansas when school in Wisconsin, kind of like all over there.
Right. So North, South, Midwest, Northeast. So it’s kind of a mixture of where I met, where, where do go home, where do you see the eye? That is a I think it’s complicated. I think it’s I call the world my home.
I’m like that.
Right. I spent like very short period of time and in China, actually. So that was Gwang she nuni not.
You mean you got to be kidding me. No we did not talk about this last time.
No we didn’t talk about this because that’s where my dad’s from. I was born and raised in Beijing, my mom’s from Beijing. Her and my dad out of all places. I can never explain guanxi because everybody always knows Guangdong, right cantet. And that’s where honestly a lot of the majority of his family end up ended up. Right now, it’s what they call home. So so my dad is actually from Bonzi and is so passionate about learning in area and oh my God, this is like so weird.
Yeah. So I think and then a past relationship of mine was from Canada. So we spent a lot of time in Canada. So it’s kind of like this mixture of just life when I was young. And again, I don’t want to talk. We’ll skip the whole religious talk right now.
But I like this. Absolutely. Really? Yeah. What religious that’s causative. It’s first question right off our own being, like, what is your religious origin? Does it have to be about going to churches and all that? But it’s you know, I mean, I guess we could.
What is your religious upbringing? I mean.
Yeah, so we’re of a fundamentalist Christian. OK, so I grew up in that lifestyle. I grew up understanding it, and I think I was in first grade when I gave my first sermon that my dad wrote. So that was kind of like an interesting interaction. So speaking was always a part of that. Oh, and look at that. So I remember always being told to slow down. Right. So that goes back to that conversation to slow down and articulate.
Yeah. And I think that. Brought me into this sort of teaching, so when I went to China, then it was this conversation of, OK, you fit all the demographics, you’re white, you’re American, you speak English. So can you teach us something about English? And you’re articulating enough that we can hear the pronunciation of English words this whole time. You just solved you see, like the things that people don’t end up talking about while going Lifestream actually answers all the mysterious questions I had because, you know, I there are assumptions where meeting you for the first time, I assume that the way you’ve traveled to China and the way that you have a lot of you will know a lot of international population because I see you as like you have this all-American look.
So that’s just my own assumption. Right. And then talking and talking to you like today, I realize I mean, this guy definitely taught ESL for those of you guys who don’t know that his English as a second language, because you remind me of people that I learn English from. And it was so much appreciated because when English is your first language, it comes natural. But like for Chinese people, as I’m teaching my mom right now, like she always as a T wear a D after every word because she’s like that.
They’re just like, yeah. So I said today I was like, Mom, how do you say is done eating. She’s like, done eating done. There’s no diet is done eating. And so it’s fascinating. So you taught English in China.
Yes. Yes. For a year. Well, and I think now it turned into this global pandemic, came around. And there’s like this shift of can you can you can you teach a little bit online and how does that work? And so well and also I mean, I think wi fi or connectivity is an issue as and that that goes to kind of like what I’m doing here and see of how many people in rural areas do not have access to Internet.
Right. And that that is also in the United States as well as over in China. Right. Where the connectivity is so hard, but it’s so needed when everyone’s stuck in their home.
Yeah. I must ask, out of all the places people normally like normal people choose to go to, we’re talking about like Hong Kong, Beijing, Shanghai, Canton. How did you end up in Guangzhou? Not like how I never even. How do you find that program? Why that place.
Yeah. So I was in North Carolina University. North Carolina has a really good relationship with English sort of scholars in in China and a teacher that did six months in the United States and six months Wang Xi University. I connected with her and we just kind of like it turned into a new program that they were building and then other people kind of joined us. It was all by accident. Like everything is by accident. I think you just have to keep your mind open, right.
Wow. So we did we did go to Graylin and that was that was interesting, too, that it’s a beautiful place, but in there, like. Yeah, I also stayed on the top of a mountain rice field and. Now, Sean, is that right? Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, if I said that right, I it’s been three years now, so I was going to say it’s only been three years. I was thinking like, oh, hey, you like those guys?
Like, when did you graduate from college? I had assumed that this is like a part of a college experience. Where outside of college.
Yeah, so it was only four at the end of the summer, and it was kind of like a twenty one day sort of trip, OK, but it was an experience. I mean, an experience that I just wanted to do. And so I had those three weeks and said, yeah, let’s let’s give it a go.
Everyone says I look young, so I wonder how young I look.
Like I’m losing. Like, as I’m getting older, I’m losing track of the timeline together because we are I mean I mean, like, seriously don’t I’m trying to do the math. This is so embarrassing. Sorry, we’re 20, 20. So if you were in China three years ago, you graduate in twenty. Seventeen, sixteen.
Now, it was in the middle of my life. Oh, OK, I’m going to I’m I’m going to be thirty six this year.
OK, yeah. OK, cool, cool. We’re.
And I’m going to be 36 this year, so that’s a great age, by the way. Wonderful. I was there last year.
I can tell you right there it is so sorry for derailing you. But this is fascinating. I don’t know what it is, but to discover people’s journey just shocks my system to no end and really does like in the most unexpected ways. And there’s a sense of connection, right. That you’ll have with someone if you didn’t find out about this. I mean, like I admit that recently I interviewed B.J. Miller, who a palliative care doctor, and my my mom was so inspired who ended up painting a painting of him and.
Oh, my God, it just is just unbelievable. Astonishing. And she had this vision. Neither one of us really can say that we know him very well. My mom had this vision one day. She’s like, I think Dr. Miller is very into ancient Chinese paintings and techniques like, no, no, no, mom, no, I don’t I don’t think so. And she’s like, well, I saw a painting in his house. And one of the videos you share with me like, no, that’s a Zen hospice center.
That’s not really his home. So I don’t think he really cares or know as much about this. And of course, five minutes later that same day or something, I listen to his podcast with Krista Tippett from on being. He’s like, yeah, I almost went to China to study for a semester. I learn Chinese, Mandarin Chinese for a year in school. And ah, I’m just like, what is this? What kind of vision is this on the learning similar things about you, which is awesome.
Yeah. I mean I think just world since we’re so globally connected, there’s so much to learn from different cultures and the, the diversity. Helps bring out, I think, the best in people. I mean, that’s how I’ve always looked at it. A lot of other people would say, you know, if we did talk about race I grew up in in Virginia where my father is from, you know, he was a minority in this place called Hampton, Virginia.
No one ever knows where where it is. But there’s this university called the Hampton University, which is a historically black college. Right. And so I remember growing up in Virginia and being one of the only white kids right in school. And then when we moved Illinois, there was one black kid in my high school. So it was like this weird shift in cultures and so like. When you’re young, I don’t think you like it, you don’t.
I had never thought about it and I didn’t really think about it until I went to college and then, you know, going to university. And then it just started, like the more you read and the more you interacted, things started to come up.
Good. Yeah, I mean, I wonder you’re really young when this was happening for you to realize that. And later, remember and today I’m I’m curious because I had to experience that more or less since I was a I would say, 17 a little bit periodically when I was younger, because my mom, my parents had a lot of friends in Europe and in America. They will travel. But I always knew it was temporary. That wasn’t really, really integrate into part of my life to see kids of different skin color origins.
Most of the kids obviously I interacted with were Chinese. But for you to experience that in elementary school, middle school, do you I mean, did you what did you what are some of the senses you had at the time? And I wonder how it would maybe impact your your life today, interacting to be actually living a hodgepodge. Right. There’s every one, every culture. Do you think it helps for you to adapt in a conversation with friends of many different origins?
Because I know some people are a little bit afraid of it or feel really uncomfortable and they’re honest to honest enough to admit that to me.
Can you rephrase that?
Sure. This is my question, Santa, sometimes a little run a little long with multiple questions built and don’t do that. So I, I just I wonder, maybe it’s it’s one question. I will build it up a little bit. I went to high school in Fryeburg, Maine, where we were the only Asian kids out of I mean, like miles and miles. I like we were seven Chinese kids in a private school. But then I realized one of my mentor, one of my teachers, Tracey, tried or really took us in, and her kids who are still friends with me, you know, Chelsea smiles.
These kids, we’re all the same age, but they were surrounded by us every single year. And in fact, I didn’t realize later on it had been happening to my friend Chelsea her whole life. Her parents always brought kids over to the house, you know, kids from all countries. At one point, she saw herself as the Chinese person. She’s blond, you know, very blond. And so I just thought it was so fascinating to me that later on I see these kids, my friends, to be very accepting and very comfortable in an environment where there are people of different colors, ethnicities, origins and cultures.
So I wonder maybe you’ve had a similar experience because you you were exposed to that culture a little bit earlier on.
Yeah, I mean, I think I think that does help I. So Harvard has this implicit bias. I’m going to take a different spin. They this implicit bias projects they have online. You can take these these exams. Right. And it’s a bunch of different things. So you can think the I think one is a Muslim and Arab. One is police. One is white. Black. Lesbian, gay, trans, like all these sort of tests and.
I think if you take those, you can see some of these implicit in, like, deep rooted thoughts that would come out. And I think the more that you’re exposed, I have found in taking the tests, the language and the exposure really changes how I read people, and I’ll be one to admit that certain things where people would say, oh, well, he’s white. So he probably has these sorts of things like thinking about are wrong, where it’s sometimes the opposite, right.
Where it would be. Things I’m not exposed to when I was younger or read about in a particular way that have changed my viewpoint. So, for example, I’m and I’m still learning more about Middle Eastern culture. Were one of my sisters lived in the Middle East for two years. Right. And she has a completely different perspective than I do where she was a lot younger than I was. So living in a historically black college neighborhood has and I’m not going to speak for how what her perceptions are, but I think they’re going to be different than mine and how we grew up.
So I think being exposed to a lot to that diversity from a rich, poor, this country, that country really puts in a new perspective on how you look at things and how you grow up.
Yeah, I think it’s really interesting. You have such an analytical mind. I would love to take that assessment or a test myself. You know, years ago, people said there was I remember there was one time when I was in college, I go to early. Two thousand. Two thousand. And I remember Faye, you’re definitely going to fail this like you have to choose out of all the Asian people pictures, which is like Chinese, Japanese, Korean.
And I failed miserably. So that was such a that is way less sophisticated than what you’re describing. But at the same time, I think it’s it’s interesting at this part. I don’t think that people probably know much about you. And I know we’re stepping into territory is very can be sensitive. And that’s something I don’t typically talk about religion or politics on the show, because everybody tends to have a different opinion and tends to convey you are trying to convince you in one form or another.
But I it is fascinating through my own experience. I always tell people, except for we’re in the pandemic, that if you 20 years old and you don’t speak the language, go to that country and try to really live trying to survive, make friends, and you’re going to see and learn so much more about these people that you’ve never learned on TV in the books. And it will be often completely the opposite and counterintuitive then what you thought you’re dealing with.
So, yeah, it’s fascinating.
Yeah. I mean, the interaction that I’ve had with how people view the United States through movies or through television, and then they come over and say, you’re put in the middle of the country. Right. Because D.C. isn’t really like really well thought of maybe Chicago and a little less L.A. and New York, like everybody thinks New York, L.A., this is what it is. America. Yeah. And that’s America. And I had a friend from Turkey who when she came over to the United States, she got a job in Honolulu, Hawaii.
Right. And was like, hey, I’m going to America. Right. And everyone in America was like, you’re not going to America. You’re going to Hawaii. Like, it’s a completely different place than a rural part of the United States. But I think it’s also like the United States is so vast that you’re going to find different different perspectives from the east to the west, you know, regional aspects and then the north and the south, obviously the same.
So but since we’re on the top but we can totally talk about these things, where do you want to start? I mean, we.
Yeah, how much time we got.
I think I think for me, like problem solving. So I was thinking about you had kind of pitched the idea of what’s not on paper is the best part of me. So I was talking to I’ve been talking to a lot of people about what are the aspects that they find in me, those that really know me, that are valuable, like or be friends with me. A question. But they like and. I think the thought comes about caring and sticking up for my people, and I think.
If you really want to focus on problem solving, then. We have to be able to disagree and have those conversations of disagreement. And I think I’ve always been brought up where if you want to have a conversation, then you need to be levelheaded, you have to be stable. I think you’ve talked about this on your podcast before in terms of negotiations. Right. Like if it’s a fighting sort of battle, then you’re not going to get anywhere.
Right. You’re not going to work well with anybody. I’ve always thought about negotiations is more like human interaction. So if you act as a human to someone else, then you’re probably going to be able to problem solve and you don’t have to agree 100 percent of the time.
That’s interesting. Like, I think that’s the problem that we’re facing right now, big and big and small. I mean, even not just the overarching politics that we’re all facing and living with, but also like inside small households, like people, you know, maybe that’s why partners don’t get along really well. How do you like how do you find some of the skills that you’ve leveraged or even changing the tone of voice or taking a different perspective to resolve something more quickly, peacefully?
We’ll agree to disagree. Like what’s that process like for you?
So I get the two things, I think I’m still I still work on that with my personal say significant other right, because it’s the relationship, because it is very both of us are very strong willed individuals, but we care so much. So we care about the topic and we know how each other is going to interact. And but we still are. So in that regard, now it is, hey, we’re being more open and communicating, communicating to the fact of I don’t like your tone.
I feel this tone and just saying it like calling it out, like here’s the tone that I’m getting from, you know, we’re not going to go far enough because I’m going to start to have that tone. You’re going to have that we’re not going far. Right. So I think that in terms of household or significant other, there’s calling those things out and other people, I think it’s trying to. Trying to I mean, I think it goes back to I think you’ve talked to others before, marrying and validating, like these are concepts that we just have to continually work on.
This is what I heard. Right. I’m trying to understand. Or is there a way that. You can can you can convey I heard this, and this is how I’m approaching it. Is this how I should be approaching it? I think slowing down again, I think even when you talk about slowing down and understanding and conveying how you’re approaching things is so much more effective than just jumping in to what assertion you’re going to make based on some thought that you’re having or narrative that you’ve accumulated in your mind.
And now you’re going to bet on someone else.
As you’re describing that, I find myself going to really find a challenging to start an argument with you, even if I wanted to. I think, you know, like there’s a sense of the escalation of escalation. So, you know, I’ve been definitely been in conversations, situations where I I definitely talk on the faster side. And I was one day telling my dentist, you know, I’m pretty chill, I’m pretty relaxed. I don’t get he’s like, yeah, yeah, that’s all true.
But you’re intense, like just like me, you’re intense. So there if you’re with somebody else just as intense or as caring as you are for certain subjects, I can definitely see the point of escalation. You’re like you’re shouting louder. Yeah, very quickly. It will be at a boiling point. So I’m curious because you do have a very successful career and people are going to click on those links and learn more about Josh. I’m excited for them to do that.
You know, you do a lot of very big boy stuff like that. I you know, I association that’s artificial intelligence. I assume these are pretty serious things I would love to do. And I apologize for kind of directing you to talk about all your origin stories and childhood memories. I love to learn more about what you do. I’m also very curious in terms of what you have learned, what we have learned from Seth Jones, al Temba, that has been very applicable or helpful to your work life.
Yeah, so, I mean, this is great because I love talking about these these sorts of things and I think. From all the NBA and Seth Godin, I think there’s this we talked about this just recently, what, a week or two weeks ago about trusting yourself, another sponsor to sponsor mine. That’s a whole different conversation. And sponsor versus mentor would say he said, I was writing. We are writing a piece together and he goes, stop writing like a researcher.
Stop writing like your you don’t know, like write with the authority that you have. And I remember from the NBA and Seth Godin is kind of like make the assertion like your professional lead. That’s the things like lead. It needs to happen. So make it happen and see what see what comes from it. So I think that’s my thing from what the NBA was, you you have to trust yourself and you are the professional. You have to see yourself as a professional in order for other people to view you as a professional.
True, yeah, I mean, that that’s such a great topic, right, trusting yourself and sometimes you when we step back to look at these ultra wisdom coming from Seth Goerens and the Seth Jones of the world and become here like, wow, that is kind of apparent. Like, I don’t trust myself. Who am I supposed to trust? Like parents and we’re adults. But at the same time, I definitely also find myself developing. You know, there’s a workshop I’m doing for podcasters and virtual assistants.
And I’m inviting Chris Voss to join me in a webinar. There’s part of me to say, like, oh, I’m putting something out there and to measure our success or how much we should trust ourselves based on social shares comments, how many people attend the event conversion. All these things can be really daunting. And, you know, so like, do you look at those stats? Do you how do you kind of balance trusting yourself versus looking at vanity metrics and ignoring them?
Yeah, I just I for me, I just dove in and and go from there. Right. I think a part of it was so for the association for example, there was no. There was no association that was representing sort of businesses on the overall strategic national strategic plan for what is artificial intelligence or what is automation in the United States. So there’s there’s no plan where the rest of the world has a plan. And there were so many businesses that were saying, well, and this goes bad.
This kind of goes to an understanding law and legislation. The economy was the government in conjunction to help grow the market. So the regulations behind certain things and the laws behind certain things help grow businesses, especially on something as sensitive as, say, algorithms or data privacy or whatever. And the United States at this point and said, well, we don’t really have a plan. And so that’s kind of the approach was, OK, so many clients or people that I’m interacting with or doing and in this field, but you’re in this field and what a trade association or you’re with.
And and we all were like, well, there’s not a trade association, so let’s just create this. No one’s going to create it. We should create it because we see the value in it and what they are. And so from that, just things kind of like you, right by accident and then it turns into something. So from there then it was then it turned into universities. Students were going, well, we’re not getting taught this.
And you’re the only group that’s actually trying to teach lawmakers about what artificial intelligence is, what automation is and what that all looks like. Can you help us? So that’s kind of how this this world transpired. And I think. The challenge, and this is another thing from the NBA, is lawmakers were confused on how Facebook I think everybody remembers this, how Facebook makes money. Right. And they couldn’t understand trying to package it in a way that anybody can understand from any worldview and any perspective.
Definitely helped from the all NBA.
Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, it’s it’s so fascinating that all of us who joined Al Temba and, you know, came from so many walks of life. And it’s as a result, I think I’ve learned that in a way that. Of being a variety show isn’t so bad, right? Like, I bring a lot of different people from different disciplines on the show, definitely received a lot of criticism as well as. And why can’t you just interview doctors, just in your view, digital marketers and then.
So, yeah, it’s actually a lot easier to market that show, but that’s not really the reason why I started that. And as a result, I think to a Temba meeting, you are learning now about the association is where else am I going to learn all these different multidisciplinary topics like if I don’t know these people and instead just kind of be in a safe place where I’m talking to all the digital marketers who speak the same language and have the same arguments, complaints about everything.
So you mentioned that you are a you know, you mentioned teaching because you’re also an adjunct professor right now and. By the way, like, do you enjoy that experience so far and like what have you how how does it how does that make you feel? Because I feel like it’s a really big deal. We’re we’re close. We’re pretty similar in age. And now you’re the professor teaching people, I don’t know, like ten years younger. But your scene is like this as a thought, as an authority in certain topics.
Yeah, I love it. I love teaching at that level. And I’m. I am waiting to hear back on maybe having another appointment at a different university one, so I will it’s not official yet, but the students were asking, so that makes me feel good. I think also see the evaluations is kind of that’s the vanity metrics.
But I think seeing the growth from the beginning to the end and being able to package it in a certain way is super helpful, I think, outside of teaching. But I love. The thought of teaching people how to learn have always approached it this way is can you learn something and grow later when I’m gone, that’s something I didn’t get a lot when I mean a few, I can think of one professor in particular, and there were other professors too, but one in particular that was very much invested in you.
You gave me the tools to learn later when I’m not around more than material. And so I really approached it that way of saying, OK, I’m going to give you some. Of these building blocks, but I really want to teach you how to think for yourself and get excited about it, and I think it also depends on the audience. So a lot of these students don’t know the fundamentals, but they’re also not excited. And I interviewed Don Norman no way back in the day, interviewed Don Norman for this Facebook group.
He wrote The Road, a design book on the design of everyday things. Anyway, we’re talking about education at one point. And he talked about. If you start with the excitement, you start with curiosity and then you work back to like building a project, then fundamentals and then get to history, and we’ve always gone the other way where we say history first, then we go to fundamentals, then we go to a project and then we go to excitement.
Right. And I think that’s still pretty much the case where we’re like, hey, we’re going to teach you statistics. We’re going to teach you the history of statistics, and then we’re going to build a project after you learn.
All of that is fascinating. That’s why everybody hates school. Mean not everybody. That’s why. So you’ve got to convince little kids from when you’re so little till you’re an adult. That exact same format, the industrial design you just described, like, why not build the excitement first?
Right. And so I merge that with undergraduate students where they’re still like they’re in this mixture of what we’re excited about business. We’re excited about building a business. And I know like a fundamental law. So how do we build projects? Right. So they’re not to the fundamental stage because they’re just a little bit excited. But can we build projects and then kind of slowly add in the fundamentals? And get them. OK, so now I’m excited. Now I’m building a project.
OK, I see the value of learning the fundamentals and then at the end of the class, everyone well, not everyone. Right. You have the outliers, but say the majority are going, OK, I want to learn more. Do I have enough of the skills of building the project to then get into more of the fundamentals and learning on my own. Right, because we’re only doing for seven weeks or 14 weeks. That’s that’s not a lot of time to say, OK, let’s learn about all aspects of law.
And, you know, I think this is so applicable to people who are thinking or considering entrepreneurship. I think that’s that is at the heart of it, like everything you just described, because I think since for me, since the age of twenty two outside of college, so much what I do every day, whether it’s full time, but especially since I’ve become an entrepreneur in twenty sixteen, is about rethinking how to learn and how to discover new possibilities.
And so much still like yesterday till today. It’s not about learning or applying everything I already know looking through dictionaries and process books, but just to figure out like just a few stay a few steps ahead, especially in industries that are new to me. So I love what you’re sharing. And I do think, like Seth Godin and a lot of our mentors really is about and this gentleman now I recognize the book with a red pot like a teapot.
Yes. I’ve heard of this book from Don Orman is about teaching people how to think and then how to learn. So that’s that’s awesome.
Yeah, I mean, what I love about that book, I think, is some of the one aspect of it is a door, right? Just look at the doors that you see and how they’re designed. Right. And sometimes you go to a door and then they put a sign that says push or pool. And he’s basically saying. Why don’t we design a door where you don’t have to. You shouldn’t have to put up a sign to say push or pull.
The person should know how to get in and out of the door with out a sign. Right. So if there’s like a big bar right on this side, am I pushing or pulling that big bar? Hmm. Right. And normally like that into our your intuition is to pull it right. There’s a bar, a pool. If there’s like a little push thing, then that means push, push and pull. But sometimes it’s the other way where it’s the bar and you have to push it.
But you’re pulling right here, like, why isn’t this opening? Like, I’m trying to pull it, but it’s actually push. Mm hmm. And so he sees a lot of those, like I even like the top and they’re light on that book. Might be different. Right? Like a log is a certain way. No, you wouldn’t put a spout right here, right?
Yeah, that’s right. I’m looking at it right now. And I was like, I don’t get it. Oh, now I do.
Yeah, because it’s just about it.
Intuition and I think. Well, you’re also describing as challenging the system now. We’re already so familiar with that. We’ve lived with our parents have lived with for so long. And, you know, not to say people say don’t reinvent the wheel, but some I think a lot of our everyday life and even belief systems do need some reinvention. I to me, that is just the most fascinating things out there. Again, like, for example, I reference and I hear these conversations all the time as my mom’s painting, Dr.
B.J. Miller, I’m hearing her playing our conversation in the background. And I picked up certain things such as like not just cancer patients, people with serious illness. The first question is, can I still have sex? Right. And then it’s really interesting. People’s fundamental understanding of sex is just one thing, but you often neglect the fact that it is intimacy is so much bigger than that. You need a bigger framework to understand how to solve the problems.
Like we humans are so creative can be very generative. And why are people only think about sex in terms of intercourse? That’s it. You know, and it just it’s so fascinating to me to realize, like, you know, for us, like looking at the teapot, the door, how to how to have sex, how to build a longstanding and healthy relationship with a partner. And I think we’re kind of all talking about the same thing here.
And, yeah, there’s just that’s what I have been thinking about lately. A lot.
Yeah. Was human interaction, like, what do you want out of it? I was asked recently. So right now there’s this big movement protest happening in Washington, D.C. and around the country. So Carthage College where I teach, is in Kenosha, Wisconsin, which is all over the news. And there’s so many conversations happening in that area. And the conversation is, are you out there on the streets getting really angry? Right. And. I think it’s not productive to just be so angry that you’re not, because then you don’t listen to my judging those that are getting really angry.
No, that’s not productive either. But there’s a there’s a the strategy, I think we all have to think about what do we want from this? And I think having more conversations and getting more perspective, because if two people are yelling at each other, they’re not hearing the other person. That’s that’s where all of this collides. Right. If I was a teacher and my students and I was just yelling at them, then they’re not going to learn and they’re not going to gain anything.
And if they were just yelling at me, then there’s there’s no human interaction. Same goes with our personal relationships. And I beg me, if I was yelling at you, you would say, well, he’s never coming on a podcast or I didn’t learn anything. Right. Like, all of this is about human interaction. And so we. Enter, interact as humans then then it’s really, really difficult to get your point across or hear the other person’s perspective.
Yeah, and, you know, I have comfortably used up your entire hour, and I do like how we ended up talking about really love, especially some of these final discoveries, some points. And I, I just want to say that sometimes it’s so easy for most people to think about the what’s in it for me. Like, what if, you know, like, I must be either I’m happy or making money. The rest I don’t you know, I get that mentality and especially during covid.
Right. You know, with the you know, with Pop, you know, everybody is like they need this every whatever amount of dollars they can get something concrete they can look at and count on. But at the same time, I think what I learned from you from CESCO and Zel to India is we can all level up that by sharing this idea, by collaborating, by going live together. It’s it’s better for both of us. And even if I can concretely count on, you know, whatever may come out of it, you know, I hope people reach out to you.
I know a lot of people who have joined in conversations with me have reached out to me and my guests and, you know, and then that is just amazing. But even if that’s not happening, sometimes you still have to convince yourself and know that you are making an impact. You are doing something beyond yourself or your your close circle in the community. So I love I love how you describing these things. Very inspiring to me as well.
Well, thanks, Fay, I mean, you I am honored to be on your podcast because you’ve had so many great guests. Thank you. On this podcast. And you’re you’re you’re bringing me on.
My pleasure. You know, it’s my pleasure. And I know that sometimes people see these names. Sarah Cooper just took off like crazy or she’s, you know, talking to the I was a future president, you know, to be president VP. And, you know, she’s got her Netflix show. But I just I think I was literally thinking about the other day that she was this normal. She’s very talented. She’s always been. But she was this normal, humble person.
She still is today that people don’t realize that what we possess and what we can become without a vanity metrics. So, you know, you’re just as Josh, just as special as everybody else, you know, and in many aspects, you are offering more than some of them could. So, yeah, definitely trust our instinct. Trust ourselves that you don’t take away anything else. That’s it. You got to trust yourself.
Exactly. To trust yourself. So. Well, thanks. I appreciate it.
Yeah, let’s have an awkward ending, so we’re going to go offline now. You’re going to stop Lifestream, don’t miss us too much. Check out Josh, check out my calendar event and whoever is whoever I mean. Oh, Chris Voss is bring his entire team to join me on a webinar. You can find out more at Faisal Dotcom for large events. So our ongoing offline five.
This episode of the First World podcast is brought to you by Fey’s World LLC, our marketing service agency created for independent creators and businesses. We offer website development, video production, marketing, mentorship to people who want to tell better stories, level up and create a profitable brand phasor podcast team. Our chief editor and producer, Herman Silvio’s associate producer, Adam Lefort, social media and content manager, Rosta Leon transcript editor Allena Almodovar. And lastly, myself, the creator and host of Face World.
Thank you so much for listening.
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